real scary please debunk or confirm thanks
this is an article that was written in June. It predicts the northern lights being seen at lower latitudes. This is exactly what happened last week. Can a solar storm react with fallout from fukushima as the article states? http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2011/06/threat-alert-solar-proton-b...
This is nonsense
This is nonsense, and here are a few reasons why:
(1) Those proposed reactions with cosmic rays are extremely improbable. Even when the concentrations of radioactive nuclides in the atmosphere were at their peak in late March/early April, the likelihood of reactions with cosmic rays was too tiny to create any detectable amount of other radioactive nuclides, let alone a dangerous level. Cosmic rays constantly interact with atoms in our atmosphere like carbon and nitrogen (which are extremely abundant) to create the so-called cosmogenic nuclides, however even these are relatively rare.
(2) Only at the end of March and beginning of April were there any significant amounts of radioactive material in the atmosphere (see, e.g., our own air measurements). Therefore the fallout cannot presently have any effect. Another point is that Xe-133, which is discussed in that posting, has a 5.2 day half-life, and it definitely is not around anymore.
(3) The beta emissions from radioactive releases could in principle cause an increase in the electron content of the ionosphere, which could potentially lead to changes in space weather. However, a team of Japanese researchers searched for ionospheric disturbances after the earthquake and could not find a good correlation between ionospheric disturbances and radioactive releases (Kakinami et al., Adv. in Space Res., 48, 10, 1613 (2011)).
(4) Northern lights are rarely seen that far south, but it is not impossible. According to one source, this happens about once every 10 years (Source: CNN).
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
testing
While there are several valid and even likely explanations for the phenomena I do see an inconsistency in the logic regarding testing. As we know dust and esp. gases stay airborne for years it seems likely that higher atmospheric 'puddles' of radioisotopes would very separate from lower levels and not necessarily be detectable without a physical sample.
More radioactive gaseous released at Fukushima than chernobl
Seems logical and hard to dispute that testing at ground level would reveal little to nothing of what's upper atmosphere.
Ty mark
Point number three -by space weather do you mean auroras?
Space weather
Space weather includes a lot more phenomena than just auroras; it is concerned with what is happening with things like charged particles, magnetic fields, and solar flares out in space, much like regular weather is concerned with temperatures, wind, and precipitation. For example, check out the wikipedia article on space weather. Auroras are a type of space weather, much like thunderstorms are a type of regular weather.
Those researchers were looking at the electron content of the ionosphere, which is a component of space weather. They did not see correlations between space weather and radioactive releases from the Fukushima reactors.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
"Only at the end of March
"Only at the end of March and beginning of April were there any significant amounts of radioactive material in the atmosphere (see, e.g., our own air measurements). "
Mark, What precisely do you mean by the word 'significant' in the above?
Detectable
I was referring to there being detectable levels in the air. These levels peaked at the end of March and beginning of April and then died away. We observed this in California but it is also consistent with measurements by others.
My point #2 was just that there was a brief window during which the suggested effect could have taken place, and the window was many months ago.
Does that make sense?
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
wait a minute
Potrblog predicted with stunning accuracy the occurrence of the 'southerly' Northern Lights. This guy could out physics any BRAWM team member with his eyes closed and one arm tied behind his back.
Too many people have been seeing elevated readings across the northern hemisphere with there simple little detectors. Now the sky lights up. What's it going to take for people to 'wake up'?
I guess when birth rates start dropping and food and water contamination become our primary concern then maybe people will wake up to the "deniable credibility" that always gets placed on this subject.
"Only at the end of March and beginning of April were there any SIGNIFICANT amounts of radioactive material in the atmosphere" - banstra
Wait a minute. I remember back in March/April the experts were saying there were NOT any significant amounts going to reach the USA. There was NOTHING to be concerned about. (don't believe it)
We have admittedly been lied to in the beginning. Why should it be any different now?
Demand cesium free milk.
______
The precautionary principle may also be interpreted as the evolution of the [Hippocratic Oath] of “first, do no harm” applied to institutions and institutional decision-making processes rather than individuals. — wikipedia
Instead of asking the basic risk-assessment question "How much harm is allowable?", the precautionary approach asks "How little harm is possible?"
http://www.radiationtruth.org/the-precautionary-principle/
Radioactive rain and handheld detectors
The radioactivity seen in rainwater with handheld detectors is not due to Fukushima; as has been pointed out by a couple posters below, it is a natural phenomenon that always occurs, and it has been thoroughly documented and discussed on this website. A few months ago I reproduced and documented this phenomenon and explained why it is not fallout from Fukushima but rather due to radon decay products.
Please see my comment above about what "significant" meant in the original context.
Our germanium detectors have the ability to detect very small amounts of different radioactive isotopes, and we are able to discriminate between isotopes that came from Fukushima and those that did not. We have posted the levels of radioactive isotopes that we have seen in multiple media from the Bay Area and the levels are tiny. There is no way for handheld detectors to detect the levels that we have found since the levels are far too small to be detected above natural radioactive background with a simple detector.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Funny post. No one has been
Funny post. No one has been able to see elevated levels with simple detectors, except in Japan. There was a significant release back in March, but just because it was significant doesnt mean significant amounts reached the US.
Elevated levels seen all over
Many have, most certainly, been seeing elevated levels with simple detectors.
So your statement "...No one has been able to see elevated levels with simple detectors, except in Japan." is absolutely wrong.
Here is an example: http://www.enviroreporter.com/category/radiation-station/
Not to mention Potrblog the guy who did the video that this thread is discussing also has a simple rad detector that has detected 'hot' rain is St. Louis, MO on a regular basis.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
Many have, most certainly, been seeing elevated levels with simple detectors.
So your statement "...No one has been able to see elevated levels with simple detectors, except in Japan." is absolutely wrong.
===================================================
The levels from Fukushima are way too low to be seen with simple detectors. That doesn't mean the detectors aren't registering; they are. They are registering natural background radiation principally from radon and its daughters.
In order to see the low level Fukushima signal, and separate it from the much larger natural background signal, you need a more sensitive detector, and one that can determine the particle energy so that you can do spectroscopy.
The detectors in simple hand-held units are not suitable for spectroscopy.
You need a big germanium detector along with the liquid nitrogen dewar to keep it at operating temperature. The BRAWM web pages show you the setup used by the BRAWM team:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/UCBAirSamplingSetup
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/1906
Again, the readings on the hand-held detectors are from natural background radiation
First off, if you know
First off, if you know anything about radioactivity you know that "hot" rain is caused by the rain dropping the radon daughters out of the air. That has occurred since the beginning of the planet. Also the rad site shows twice background is not that unusual. Background varies a lot and twice background is not unusual. Plus they were comparing background air filters to background air. That is not an equal comparison. Most of those filters would capture radon products.
Black Rain
:(
"If you know anything about anything"; then you know that ...
Black Rain is formed by nuclear fallout washed to earth by falling rain.
Do not drink the Black Rain!
Superb post.
Superb post.
Conspiracy?
:(
Prussian Blue reduces trace C-137
So, did Professor Emeritus Kazuhiko Maekawa commit a crime under Japanese or international law? Wherein do his statements differ from concentration camp guards directing Jews to ‘the showers’?
At a June 30 press conference by the government and Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s disaster response team, Kazuhiko Maekawa, professor emeritus of emergency medicine at the University of Tokyo, said that "the effects (of Prussian blue) on low-dose radiation dosages are completely unknown."
However, per the USA FDA - Prussian Blue reduces trace C-137 doses - Patients contaminated with trace doses of cesium-137, show a similar reduction in whole-body effective half-life with PB.
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4997
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110709p2a00m0na024000c.html
http://www.fda.gov/OHRMS/DOCKETS/98fr/03d-0023-nad00001.pdf
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES Food and Drug Administration [Docket No. 03D-O023]
Data from additional literature articles, including a study of 7 human volunteers contaminated with trace doses of cesium-137 and reports on 19 patients contaminated with cesium-137 in other incidents, show a similar reduction in whole-body effective half-life after administration of prussian blue (see Madhus, 1968 and National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement, 1979).
Really interesting. It makes
Really interesting. It makes sense to me.
Let's just hope it stayed up there.
Run
...
IF Fukushima size nuclear meltdowns occur within 500 miles of your home ...
Run away and don't go back.
I don't read piss on the roses who wrote Article not a scientist
Daddy... What Makes the Lights Shine?
What causes the Northern Lights? Think of it this way...
Somebody throws handfulls of confetti in front of a huge fan. Soon it looks like a snowstorm in the room as the air is filled with tiny bits of paper.
Another person stands on the other side of the room with a big vacuum cleaner, holding the nozzle up into the air. A third person holds an electrified metal heating grid over the opening of the vacuum nozzle.
The vacuum starts to pull confetti out of the air, but before the bits of paper can enter the nozzle, they hit the grid - bursting into flame.
The Sun's magnetic field (the fan) throws charged particles from its atmosphere (the confetti) out into space (the room). As these particles near the Earth they are pulled in by its magnetic field (the vacuum), which pulls them down to the magnetic poles (the nozzle). Before they can reach the Earth, the charged particles hit the Earth's atmosphere (the grid) and collide with the gases found there. The reaction between those particles and the gases creates energy, and the energy is given off as light - the Northern Lights.
http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-nlights-cause.htm
Suggest you read this as well. Tdm
Northern lights take unusual trip down south -AP
"Space weather forecast chief Bob Rutledge said given the size of the solar storm, the lights probably shouldn't have been visible south of Iowa. The storm was only considered "moderate" sized, he said."
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/northern-lights-take-unusual-120994...
So there u have it are there more noble gases ,particles ect in atmosphere from Fukushima ?if you look into release data from Fukushima it leads me to believe there is indeed be large amounts in atmosphere .
Define "large"
Sure the numbers are big numbers; but you have to know what those numbers mean.
For example, there is a calculation here that shows that the reported 36,000 TBq of Cs-137, when converted to the equivalent mass, shows the mass of Cs-137 to be less than 25 pounds.
The 36,000 TBq of Cs-137 sounds so much more threatening than 25 pounds of Cs-137, but they are equivalent.
@ define large
so how much of the 25 pounds would you like to take home to your family?
With proper shielding..
With proper shielding; I'd take the whole lot.
With proper shielding, it isn't going to do any damage to me.
I'm already exposed to lots of radiation from other sources, see the following courtesy of the University of Michigan:
http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radrus.htm
If I am already exposed to all the radiation detailed above that I can't do anything about; why would I be concerned about 25 pounds of shielded material that can't hurt me.
Please
Your absolutely correct. Let's arrange to have you and yours from this day forward hang on to the stuff til it's cooled all the way down. I bet we can even arrange payment in advance for the kind and important job. Let us know what the charge will be for thirty generations of custodial care.
Good Luck
Too Stupid For Words
Please feel free to share your name and contact information.
Are you Ann Coulter - the HORMESIS Goddess?
How many king cobras would you welcome into your living room?
Actually there is evidence for hormesis
Why should I fear safely shielded radioisotopes? Do you fear a flame that is confined in a furnace?
Actually there is evidence for hormesis, courtesy Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory:
https://www.llnl.gov/str/JulAug03/Wyrobek.html
Low-Dose Exposure Can Protect
The team also discovered that the human lymphoblastoid cells exhibit what is called an adaptive response to ionizing radiation. An extremely low dose (also called a priming dose) appears to offer protection to the cell from a subsequent high dose (2 grays) of ionizing radiation. The degree of protection was measured by the amount of reduced chromosomal damage. A priming dose of 0.05 gray, administered about 6 hours before the high dose, can reduce chromosomal damage by 20 to 50 percent, compared with damage to cells that were not exposed to the priming dose.
?Pretreatment with a low dose of ionizing radiation sets the cell up to better survive a much higher dose of radiation. A tiny stress apparently helps a cell get ready for a bigger stress,? says Coleman. About 200 genes were found to be associated with adaptive response in the human lymphoblastoid cells. Of these, about half were turned on, and half were turned off. ?We want to know what genes and pathways are associated with adaptation. Is the adaptive response similar to the low-dose response?
So it looks like Coulter knew something you didn't. Where does that put you on the intelligence scale?
Swim to the cerulean glow
Ann is still single, though perhaps getting a bit 'long of tooth' to be a breeder. So you two may form a 'perfect couple', kinda like Bill and Hillary Clinton, Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu or Bonnie and Clide.
Some marriages spare a lot of innocent romantics a life of connubial purgatory.
Ask her out ... and swim toward the cerulean blue glow. Ignore it when your skin sloughs off into the shimmering water, keep chanting ...
"Radiation is good"
Assumptions
Why do you assume that I am male?
I don't
;)
Assume nothing
Excellent Question
*
Hear hear!
How much mass?
How much mass?
What is the average weight of the Ebola virus?
How much mass is present in an HIV infection.
Light ... AND ... low mass ... no problem?
NUTS
A little EBOLA goes a long way.
So does a little lie. So also, a teeny bit pregnant, slightly dead and a smidge stupid.
How much mass is present in
How much mass is present in an HIV infection.
=============================================
The poster that analogizes radiation exposure to casual contact with an HIV-positive individual has a point. There is a minimum level of HIV virus that needs to be transferred in order to blossom into AIDS.
Likewise with radiation. The gullible idiots that have been listening to Helen Caldicott and her "no safe level" crap are not going to like what real scientists have to say about this. Courtesy of the University of Michigan:
http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/hprisk.htm
In accordance with current knowledge of radiation health risks, the Health Physics Society recommends against quantitative estimation of health risk below an individual dose of 5 rem(1) in one year, or a lifetime dose of 10 rem in addition to background radiation. Risk estimation in this dose range should be strictly qualitative accentuating a range of hypothetical health outcomes with an emphasis on the likely possibility of zero adverse health effects. The current philosophy of radiation protection is based on the assumption that any radiation dose, no matter how small, may result in human health effects, such as cancer and hereditary genetic damage. There is substantial and convincing scientific evidence for health risks at high dose. Below 10 rem (which includes occupational and environmental exposures) risks of health effects are either too small to be observed or are non-existent.
People need to listen to good scientists, and not loony activists that lie, and keep this all in perspective.
ALARA
*
To the contrary
As Low As Reasonably Achievable (ALARA) is THE gold standard for radiation exposure. There is NO magic threshold level of safety. IF we could reasonably remove 90% of the K-40 and radon/radium from our lives; we would have substantially longer, healthier lives.
If infant sunburn episodes and severities were reduced by 90%; there would be a corresponding dramatic decrease in skin cancers.
Zero is NOT reasonably achievable, but LOWER is BETTER.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
IF we could reasonably remove 90% of the K-40 and radon/radium from our lives; we would have substantially longer, healthier lives.
===================================
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE for this.
As the BEIR report from the National Academy of Sciences points out; the risk due to radiation is complex. It is not the simple linear, no-threshold model. However, the NAS points out that for the purpose of formulating standards and legal limits, an LNT model is conservative.
Courtesy of the University of Michigan:
http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radiationrisk.pdf
..Below 10 rem ( which includes occupational and environmental exposures ), risks of health effects are either too small to be observed or are nonexistent...
There is however substantial scientific evidence that this model is an oversimplification of the dose-response relationship and results in an overestimate of health risks in the low dose range. Biological mechanisms including cellular repair of radiation injury, which are not accounted for by the linear no-threshold model, reduce the likelihood of cancers and genetic defects.
Radiogenic health effects ( primarily cancer ) are observed in humans only at doses in excess of 10 rem delivered at high dose rates...
Again, this "no safe level of radiation" cry reminds me so much of all the people that were so concerned about casual contact with people who were HIV-positive. There were all this hew and cry about HIV-positive children being allowed in school....
Somehow the medical community was able to educate people that the small amount of HIV virus found in the sweat and tears of AIDS patients was not a threat. Somehow the message got out that casual contact is not the way one gets AIDS.
I believe all the fuss about casual contact was politically driven by the right-wing as they attempted to fabricate a catastrophe that could be blamed on the gay community. Now we see the left-wing adopting the exact same disgusting tactics of the right-wing that they hate so much. Damn the left-wing hypocrites!
We evolved in an environment that contains both pathogens and radiation. That's why we evolved an immune system for the former, and a radiation damage repair mechanism for the latter.
If someone claimed that if we just eradicated all the germs found in our lives on doorknobs, desktops, sinks.... that we would automatically live much longer lives; would you believe them?
Hopefully not.
That is not true. ALARA is
That is not true. ALARA is just a standard that is followed, it is not a scientific belief. There has been zero evidence for any links between cancer rates and low doses. We assume a linear relationship, but that is just an extrapolation.
What really counts is the health effects
What really counts are the health effects.
For that we have the testimony to Congress from one of the pre-eminent people in the field of radiation epidemeology, Dr. John Boice:
http://science.house.gov/sites/republicans.science.house.gov/files/docum...
From page 4, Dr. Boice tells us:
The health consequences for United States citizens is negligible to nonexistant.
That's what really counts.
Fraud, distortion, delusion, and consensus
Fraud, distortion, delusion, and consensus: the problems of human and natural deception in epidemiologic science.
http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/3348248/reload=0;jsessionid=F0CCF01F65B2...
(PMID:3348248)
Abstract Citations BioEntities Related Articles Find all citations by this author (default).Or filter your current search
Feinstein AR
Clinical Epidemiology Unit, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, Connecticut 06510.
Find all citations in this journal (default).Or filter your current search
The American Journal of Medicine [1988, 84(3 Pt 1):475-8]
Type: Journal Article, Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
DOI: 10.1016/0002-9343(88)90268-9
"Everything dangerous is 'Safe'"
"the money laundering vehicle is the International Epidemiology Institute"
http://www.emf-health.com/reports-drcarlo-danishstudy.htm
Indeed, John Boice and his colleagues have been on the cell phone industry payroll, and for big money, since the late 1990's. The money laundering vehicle is the International Epidemiology Institute -- the name sounds like a non-profit by design, but make no mistake, this is a big for-profit enterprise. When I ran the WTR, the International Epidemiology Institute, with Boice and a fellow named Joe McLaughlin, applied for funding to do this exact epidemiology study that was released this week. After much discussion within the WTR, they were refused funding because I felt they were blatantly biased and had overtly given us the notion that they would always create findings that were favorable to the industry. They thought that is what we wanted in the WTR -- they thought they were playing to the audience. But, they were wrong. When we refused to give them funding to do work, they went directly to the industry with the same pitch, and were hired. They were able to make good on their pitch of being able to put "put all of this under the radar" by further laundering the industry support money through the Danish Cancer Registry. This is the pitch that was given to me personally and directly. I still have their proposal.
Bravo
Thank you for bringing this information to light for those not familiar with the International Epidemiology Institute. Yet Boice's name is dropped as "pre eminent". As always, people, follow the money. It' will lead you to the agenda everytime.
http://enenews.com/nuke-exper
http://enenews.com/nuke-expert-hot-particles-found-at-2-out-of-3-us-moni...
some people believe anything
I wish it was negligible to nonexistent, but it's obviously not.
(Note: 'nonexistent' spelled correctly.)
What should really count is that we are properly informed. That has not happened. It will not happen from our government or the subsidized academic community. That is unfortunate for the many who will suffer from these nuclear follies. Future generations will pay the highest price.
This true health effects of low dose non-stop spewing of radioactive contaminants from Fukushima is unknown. Short term or long term. My gut feeling tells me it's far worse than we will ever be told.
We are approaching 8 months of lies and contamination with no real end in site and possible worse case scenarios looming at this time. Be aware, be prepared!
With all due respect..
This true health effects of low dose non-stop spewing of radioactive contaminants from Fukushima is unknown. Short term or long term. My gut feeling tells me it's far worse than we will ever be told.
================================
With all due respect to your "gut feelings"; I prefer SCIENCE
Science
Observed phenomena is a cornerstone of science. The post Chernobyl experience is instructive.
Three decades of nutrient cycling and bioaccumulation have shown that the long term effects of releases of radioisotopes that are strong bioanalogs like Cs and Sr are MUCH MORE SUSTAINED in the environment than originally expected. When not interrupted they RE CONCENTRATE year after year in the Biosphere IN SPITE the overall decay.
This SUSTAINED pollution creates CONTINUAL INCREASES in internal emitters in all participants in the food chain, INCLUDING MAN, leading to INTER-GENERATIONAL epidemics of radiation induced illnesses including but defiantly not limited to cancers and permanent genetic damage.
Nice, tight, highly regarded studies from German and Swedish sources document this in detail.
Of course thick as a brick pro nukers that don't know the biological difference between K, K-40 and Cs-134, Cs-137 will dispute this, ignoring biochemistry and more recent developments in the system and cellular effects of these bioaccumulators as well. I guess all those company men from the tobacco industry had to get employment somewhere.
@negligible to nonexistant
your kidding right. The releases are non stop. this stuff bio accumulates. The biggest nuclear disaster the world has ever seen. The prevailing winds blow continuously over the united states and you believe our consequences to be negligible to nonexistent. You must also believe tepco is in control of the situation over there to. http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Nuclear+pollution+from+Fukushima+world+...
You haven't been listening.
You haven't been listening; BRAWM has told us the releases are dwindling off. We have seen the bulk of the emissions have already been emitted.
The scientist that was testifying to Congress, Dr John Boice, is an eminent radiation epidemiologist and has surely taken the effects of biological accumulation into account.
Even though the accident is large, it is still not the worst as Dr. Boice stated, "Fukushima is not Chernobyl". I know the boneheaded idiot anti-nukes sure want it to be the worst; but it isn't.
Additionally, as Dr. Boice states, even though Fukushima may be the 2nd worse accident; it is still not that bad for the USA and its citizens.
I believe good and eminent scientists like Dr. Boice, and not sniveling little idiot anti-nukes that are hoping for a catastrophe when there clearly isn't one.
there ya go again with that
there ya go again with that "eminent radiation epidemiologist" reference.
Better find someone else without a blatant agenda.
"sniveling little idiot
"sniveling little idiot anti-nukes "
and now we know YOUR agenda.
What an ugly and ignorant thing to say.
"idiot" better describes blanket insults toward those with whom you disagree.
Grow up and learn to have adult discussions with people. You might learn something.
demonstrated lack of objectivity
Can you not see your ad-homonym attack demonstrates a less than thoughtful individual with lost self control who either does not see or does not care about demonstrating deeply hypocritical reflexive behavior by spewing out a PARAGRAPH of name-calling while fatuously complaining about the assertion your referenced expert has an agenda?
Of course not. You did not set out to make your self look silly, it just turned out that way.
While a free and vigorous exchange of ideas are of value to everyone it wastes time when someone indulges in shallow behavior. I know you can do better.
Thanks for participating.
the worst is yet to come
And it will come from fukushima.
Fukushima is just beginning and Chernobyl is not over
Name calling is a diversion used by those with a low IQ.
Unfortunately low IQ may be a side affect of low dose long term radiation contamination exposure. I hope you get better soon.
Given tonights revelations
Given tonights revelations of new fission this post and the one right above it seem pretty predictive.