Virgin steel
For those who state that the radiation we are living with in the post-nuclear world is not appreciably different from background levels pre-20th century ...
How do you explain the virgin steel phenomenon? If the levels are enough higher that steel made post-nuclear cannot be used in certain applications, then that would strike me as "appreciable".
It may or may not be a difference that represents hazards to human health, but to claim that there is NO appreciable difference is to damage your credibility as an authority on the topic.
I would be interested, particularly, in hearing Mark's response to this. Apologies if it has already been covered. If so, a link to the discussion would be great.
Thanks.


Where do you get virgin steel?
Q: Where do you get virgin wool?
A: From ugly sheep.
Q: Where do you get virgin steel
A: From ugly smelters.
Thyroid and Lung Cancer
Mark:
The BRAWM research is necessarily concentrated upon Cesium-137 and Cesium-134. This is a useful tool for identifying the Fukushima Daiichi emissions, in California, approximately 5,000 miles away.
This year the ratio is approximately 1/1. In two years the ratio will be approximately 2/1. Four or five years out the ratio of Cs-137 to Cs-134 will be 4/1 and so forth and so on as the Cesium-134 half-lifes away.
This excellent observation does not have much value in probing the health effects of the Fukushima Daiichi Class-7+ nuclear disaster. The transient effects of the rapidly vanishing Radioactive Iodine, Cesium-134, Americium and all the other short half-life radionuclides, particularly on Honshu Island Japan are quite serious.
Also, prior to the nuclear age, no human ever ingested or inhaled a fatal plutonium or radioactive iodine dose. We are well advised to recognize the very real health and environmental hazards posed by the entire spectrum of radionuclides.
Pandora's Box
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Until the dawn of the nuclear age, it is doubtful that ANY human being EVER died from Acute Radiation Sickness (ARS) or as a result of an atomic prompt criticality.
Neither were any cancers treated with radiation nor broken bones reduced with X-Ray assistance. No wars were ever ended or prevented by threat of atomic annihalation.
It is always a mixed blessing to open Pandora's Box.
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Lucky Dragon #5 ARS Deaths
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ARS Deaths aboard the Lucky Dragon #5 tuna boat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb4rjAmUHUk
http://darumamuseumgallery.blogspot.com/2007/06/fifth-lucky-dragon.html
Daigo Fukuryumaru (the Fifth Lucky Dragon)
??????? ???????5??????
Before dawn of March 1st in 1954, the U.S. hydrogen bomb "Bravo" blew up at the Bikini Atoll in the Marshall Islands. The power was 1,000 times more than the A-bomb on Hiroshima. The Daigo Fukuryumaru (the Fifth Lucky Dragon), a tuna fishing boat, was operating near the Rongelap Atoll, which was thought to be outside the warning area and was about 160km away from Bikini Atoll. A few hours later, radioactive pieces of coral reef called "Ash of Death" poured down on 23 crew members of the boat.
Something strange appeared on their body on the way to their mother port, Yaizu. As March 14 approached, the arrival date in Yaizu Port, almost all crew members' skin became inflamed, they felt listless, they were vomiting, and their hair fell out. After entering the port, a doctor diagnosed that all of them had acute radiation diseases. They were transferred to Tokyo University Hospital and the National Tokyo Daiichi Hospital from a local hospital.
We also have to note...
We are well advised to recognize the very real health and environmental hazards posed by the entire spectrum of radionuclides.
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We also have to note that there is an entire spectrum of naturally occurring radionuclides; among them Carbon-14, Tritium, Potassium-40....
Some of these radionuclides are left over from the nuclear reactions in the stars that created all elements heavier than Helium. Some of these elements,
like the Carbon-14 and Tritium, and continually replenished by cosmic ray induced reactions in our upper atmosphere.
Prior to the nuclear age, ALL humans were ingesting radioisotopes with their food and air. Radiation and radioactivity are all around us, just like germs. Just as humans and animals had to evolve an immune system to protect us from natural pathogens, humans and animals have also evolved a radiation damage repair system to contend with the natural radiation and radioactivity to which we are exposed.
Yes - no human ever ingested or inhaled a fatal plutonium or radioactive iodine dose prior to the nuclear, and no human has ever ingested or inhaled a fatal plutonium or radioactive iodine dose since the start of the nuclear age. Do you have any documentation of someone that was killed by ingesting either plutonium or radio-iodine?
Those stories are mostly fabricated to scare little children, and child-like adults.
Plutonium References
The reader may wish to review a few plutonium related publications. Since I received my first radioactive hazards briefings from SAC, in the late 1950s and early 1960s, the idiocy of these bloggers is quite astounding. Evidently, not everyone has good survival instincts. Those who do, should NOT swim toward the cerulean glow.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00818013.pdf
Plutonium and Health, How Great is the Risk
George L. Voelz as told to Ileana G. Buican
Los Alamos Science Number 26 2000
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00326640.pdf
The Human Plutonium Injection Experiments
William Moss and Roger Eckhardt
Number 23 1995 Los Alamos Science
'The Radium Girls'
Those familiar with 'The Radium Girls' may recognize the initial concern foundations.
Similarities with radium.
That the health risks for the intake and retention of plutonium might be as dangerous as those of radium was apparent from a comparison of their chemical and nuclear properties. Both elements were heavy metals that were expected to deposit in bone. Both had long halflives - 1,600 years for radium-226 and 24,000 years for plutonium-239—and both decayed by alpha emission.
Ghost of Jim Jones, Rev.
:(
So, do we have the pleasure of hearing from Jim Jones (Purple Koolaide), or from Ann Coulter, JD (Hormesis)?
OOOh, plutonium is our SPECIAL friend.
Nutjobs ...
1st US Radiation Death
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http://www.thenation.com/blog/163372/66-years-ago-first-american-dies-nu...
http://www.atomicheritage.org/index.php?id=92&option=com_content&task=view
On the evening of August 21, 1945, Harry Daghlian was conducting an experiment at the Omega Site when he dropped a thirteen-pound tungsten brick on top of a cabin that held a sphere of plutonium. This caused neutrons to reflect off the critical mass. The air surrounding the cabin started glowing purple—the effect Daghlian had observed around the mushroom cloud at Trinity. In a panic, Daghlian attempted to control the reaction by tipping over the table, but it refused to move. Finally, with his bare hands, he tore away the bricks surrounding the plutonium, allowing the neutrons to escape. (An incident much like this, with John Cusack in this role, was re-enacted in the film Fat Man and Little Boy.)
Believing he was not seriously injured, Daghlian left the Omega Site, but within hours he felt sick and went to the hospital. During the following days, Daghlian exhibited many of the symptoms of radiation disease then being reported in Japan (and dismissed as “propaganda” by General Groves and others).
RIP - Louis Slotin ARS
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Rest In Peace (RIP) - Louis Slotin Acute Radiation Syndrome (ARS)
INADVERTENT SUPERCRITICALITY RESULTS IN DEATH
Los Alamos, N. Mex., May 21, 1946
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/accident/critical.html
A senior scientist [Louis Slotin] was demonstrating the technique of critical assembly and associated studies and measurements to another scientist. The particular technique employed in the demonstration was to bring a hollow hemisphere of beryllium around a mass of fissionable material which was resting in a similar lower hollow hemisphere.
The system was checked with two one-inch spacers between the upper hemisphere and the lower shell which contained the fissionable material; the system was subcritical at this time.
Then the spacers were removed so that one edge of the upper hemisphere rested on the lower shell while the other edge of the upper hemisphere was supported by a screwdriver. This latter edge was permitted to approach the lower shell slowly. While one hand held the screwdriver, the other hand was holding the upper shell with the thumb placed in an opening at the polar point.
At that time, the screwdriver apparently slipped and the upper shell fell into position around the fissionable material. Of the eight people in the room, two were directly engaged in the work leading to this incident.
The "blue glow" was observed, a heat wave felt, and immediately the top shell was slipped off and everyone left the room. The scientist who was demonstrating the experiment received sufficient dosage to result in injuries from which he died nine days later. The scientist assisting received sufficient radiation dosage to cause serious injuries and some permanent partial disability.
The other six employees in the room suffered no permanent injury. (See TID-5360, p. 4.)
Iodine-131 from Chernobyl
Iodine-131 from Chernobyl killed children in Eastern Europe.
Lies and Liars
:(
Never any shortage of inventive lies and liars.
Plutonium concentrates damage in the lungs.
Radioactive Iodine hits the thyroid gland.
Cesium destroys youthful heart muscle.
Strontium focuses damage in bone marrow.
Bioconcentration is a critical component in radionuclide related disease processes.
Radiation Deaths
Thousands of Japanese were killed in the explosions and fireballs as a result of the two USA atomic bombings of Japan.
Many more died of Acute Radiation Syndrome (ARS), which is sometimes referred to as 'Radiation Sickness'.
Thousands of Japanese residents in Nagasaki, Hiroshima and nearby cities died of ARS, following the nuclear bombings in 1945. Some radiation sickness victims received fatal doses from the initial explosion, in the form of Gamma radiation and Neutron radiation.
Others received ARS fatal doses from drinking the 'black rain' and other ingestion and inhalation exposures.
Thousands, tens of thousands or perhaps hundreds of thousands of Japanese died from radiation and radionuclide related health disorders in the next few years. There were significant increases in IUFD, particularly among gestational males. Immunological compromise, heart failure, renal failure and thyroid disorders caused thousands of Japanese deaths.
The Japanese cancer spikes began approximately 10 years out and continue to this day.
There was as little USA interest or sympathy for the Japanese victims as there was Japanese conern for US deaths at Pearl Harbor or in the Philippines. There was similarly, no particular organized interest in China, Russia, Europe, Korea or the Indian subcontinent, with respect to Japanese suffering.
Correct.
You are correct. Most of these "scare stories" are hypothetical fabrications designed to scare people for political purposes.
We saw similar behavior during the onset of the AIDS epidemic in the early '80s when it became widely known that people who were HIV-positive had HIV virus in their sweat and in their tears. There was a whole movement campaigning against "casual contact" with those with AIDS:
"Prior to the AIDS crisis, nobody died of AIDS due to casual contact with an AIDS patient, or somebody who was HIV-positive"
A most disgusting and hurtful period, and I'm glad we had the collective intelligence to get beyond it.
"Most of these "scare
"Most of these "scare stories" are hypothetical fabrications designed to scare people for political purposes."
LOL!!! My friend, I used to work in the industry for a large utility company. I was always pro nuke power until Fukushima. What I have found is that there are many many anti nuclear people who have no political agenda but are merely concerned about their health and that of their children, and justifiably so. This forum is a good example of those good people.
However, the pro nuke people... well, there you'll find political and profit motivation out the wazoo. Like the company I worked for, they are part of the corpocracy of business in bed with government for profit. Thus, decisions are made that are not in the best interest of the people.
Chumming Fish
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Really ...
Why does EVERY lying propagandist on Planet EARTH find it necessary to spew this forum?
Does casual sex count? How about teeth cleaning?
Kimberly Ann Bergalis (January 9, 1968 – December 8, 1991) was one of six patients infected with HIV after visiting David Acer, a dentist who had AIDS. This incident is the first documented case of clinical transmission of HIV in the USA.
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flatulent frauds
:
Fatuous fools and flatulent frauds,
Spouting nonsense ...
Drink deep the purple kool-Aid, said Jim Jones, it is your friend.
Too stupid to live ...
Very low background physics experiments
Great question. Whether radiation levels in the post-nuclear world have increased appreciably or not depends on what year we are talking about and what you are doing (also, I suppose, what one considers "appreciable"). For the present day, I would say the answer is "no" unless you live in certain parts of Europe or Japan, and unless you are performing very low background physics experiments.
I have pointed out in at least one other thread that the UN Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR) has estimated the average exposures to people from different radiation sources, including natural sources, weapons testing fallout, Chernobyl fallout, and the nuclear fuel cycle. In 1963, when atmospheric weapons testing was ended, the average dose from weapons testing peaked at approximately 0.11 mSv/year (UNSCEAR Report 2008, Annex B, paragraph 247). This has decreased to about 0.005 mSv/year currently. The annual dose from natural sources is approximately 2.4 mSv/year (primarily due to radon, cosmic radiation, and potassium-40). So in 1963, the average dose from weapons testing was nearly 5% of the natural dose, while today it is less than 0.3%. One of the reasons for ending atmospheric testing was that many people thought that the dose from anthropogenic radiation was becoming appreciable.
A very rough way to see this is in our recent soil tests. We found Cs-137 in older soils from previous fallout. The highest measurement we have is about 2.5 Bq/kg, as opposed to ~500 Bq/kg of the natural isotope K-40 in the same sample. So anthropogenic isotopes are definitely present in our environment but in very small amounts.
As for "virgin" steel: When metals like steel are forged, there are always trace impurities that get in the metal from the environment. Since the first nuclear weapons explosions in 1945, forged metals started including trace impurities of anthropogenic radioactive elements. These include Cesium-137 (30 year half-life) and Cobalt-60 (5.3 year half-life). There also also natural radioactive isotopes that are incorporated into the metal as it is forged, and these can cause problems as well.
Only in the most sensitive experiments are these trace amounts detectable. There are a number of physics experiments that require very low background environments, such as the deep underground experiments searching for dark matter or exotic phenomena such as neutrinoless double beta decay. Even though these experiments are deep underground, they still need radiation shielding because rocks can contain uranium, thorium, and potassium. But if regular steel or lead is used to shield these experiments, the experiments will actually see the radiation from the "dirty" steel or lead.
To get around this problem, you can either forge the steel or lead and wait around for centuries until the trace isotopes decay to an acceptable level for your experiment, or you can search for old sources of the metals. Battleship steel from before 1945 is particularly abundant and will not have Cs-137 or Co-60.
Another fascinating solution to the shielding problem is that some experiments use lead found in shipwrecks from the Roman era. Not only does this lead not have anthropogenic isotopes, but the natural stuff has also had plenty of time to decay away. An especially troublesome natural isotope is Lead-210 (22 year half-life), which is ubiquitous. Here is a great article about one recent experiment that uses Roman lead. The article shows a spectrum of the radioactivity of new lead, low-background lead, and Roman lead.
In the end I suppose it's a judgment call whether the manmade sources are "appreciable" or not. I have never said that the levels are zero, just that the amounts today are very tiny in comparison to natural sources.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Thanks, Mark
Thanks, Mark. A little extra information to help put things in perspective.
Courtesy of the Health Physics Society chapter at the University of Michigan:
http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radrus.htm
Off topic, and irrelevant,
Off topic, and irrelevant, but....
I think "Virgin Steel" would make a great name for a lousy metal band. Maybe even a teenage Christian rock band.
Sorry, I just couldn't help myself....