How much to worry for the next year...
Hi,
First please accept my heart felt regard for doing everything that you are doing and probably being the only light in a dark situation.
As you and the other radiation monitoring sites are reporting, the radio activity is leveling off. Its true but if Fukushima reactors are still oozing out trillions of becquerels of nuclear fuel every hour, why is it now not reaching the West coast !?!
Secondly what happens of all the contamination that is going on in the ocean. Will it not form clouds and come down as rain year after year!?!
Thirdly when we say the food has radio active content, does it mean its on the top surface or that it has seeped in and thus cannot be removed with clean water.
Can we please have a list of relatively safe & radiation free fresh fruits and vegetables!?! Maybe food grown underground like carrots/potatoes/beet roots are better than exposed vegetables.
Good luck with all your efforts.
Food is radioactive.
Thirdly when we say the food has radio active content, does it mean its on the top surface or that it has seeped in and thus cannot be removed with clean water.
=========================
Food is radioactive and has always been radioactive. Look up "Carbon-14 Dating". ( Don't they teach about this in the schools anymore?)
Mother Nature makes carbon and water and minerals that are all radioactive. It's not a contamination just on top; the very atoms in the food are radioactive.
The ancient Egyptians were eating radioactive food. That's how the aforementioned Carbon-14 dating works. We know how much C-14 they had in their bodies when they died. ( It builds up to a well known equilibrium value ). We measure how much of that radioactivity is left in the mummy, and figure out how long it takes for the radioactivity to decay to that level.
Safe food list - try Chernobyl Consequences report
> How much to worry for the next year...
Year? YEAR??? Try 300 years.
> Submitted by BC (not verified) on Sun, 2011-07-31 00:35.
> 3) The Cs-134 will be nearly gone in 10 years.
In two words, NO CHANCE!
On the contrary, it's 300 years - ten half lives of thirty years, with no 'ifs,' 'ands' or 'buts,' - according to the Chernobyl report, by Yablokov et al.
They report that the level of Caesium did not change, contrary to their expectations / (faint) hopes. They hypothesized that there was a mechanism for trees drawing Caesium back up into their leaves and laying it down on the surface again when the leaves fell. (*1)
The cesium that BRAWM has reported is _permanent_. For three hundred years.
Criirad in France reports that while atmospheric pollution in France is minor, as is ground radiation fallout, from Fukushima, it's an entirely different story on the US west coast, with a ten times greater exposure - in both air and ground? (*2)
So no leafy green vegetables PERMANENTLY - kale, chard, collard greens etc. Likewise dairy, but you shouldn't be eating that anyway. See Dr. T. Colin Campbell - The China Study -
- http://www.tcolincampbell.org/
and Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn. -
- http://www.heartattackproof.com/
Unless grown under plastic and watered only with unpolluted well water. Good luck on finding and relying on a trusted supplier who won't fudge the facts in order to survive financially in the present Neocon created financial holocaust.
> Can we please have a list of relatively safe & radiation free fresh fruits and vegetables!?! Maybe food grown underground like carrots/potatoes/beet roots are better than exposed vegetables.
Better to make sure yourself. Recommend the Chernobyl Consequences report, below, as has Busby et al. (But it was no immediately obvious to me and no I didn't yet read it very _very_ carefully.
SO. Come and visit us in the UK, EU! Who have their own radiation problem, courtesy of Chernobyl, says Helen Caldicott "I won't eat European food." : (
"You'll all be welcome in Virgina (Water)." Or possibly not. - the dastardly Colin Firth in Shakespeare in Love. ER, clip deleted - copyright.
Try this one. Amazing video! North Africa - our boys giving the hun a pasting. You just can't keep Der Reich-wing down! -
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbHmOibEy5w&feature=related
ER, Shum mistake? Surely you can't be serious? - Airplane -
- ("I am serious and don't call me Shirley" - Ed.) - Airplane -
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo7qoonzTCE#t=00m08s
(*1) Chernobyl Consequences - Yablokov, Nesterenko, Nesterenko -
- http://tinyurl.com/4kw34uv
Or -
- http://www.strahlentelex.de/Yablokov%20Chernobyl%20book.pdf
(*2) Criirad -
- http://www.criirad.org/
Busby with Yablokov - "We want to get a paper into the UK Lancet" - HA! No chance! - The UK Neocon #$%#s are quite as much #$%#$%s (German political party 1933 - 1946 ; ) ) as the US Neocon #$%#$%s. ; )
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTgX7s6iCg0#t=01m53s
Busby's Summer Holidays -
- http://www.youtube.com/user/radioactivebsr
Low Level Radiation Campaign -
- http://www.llrc.org/
Regarding my statement that
Regarding my statement that the Cs-134 will be most gone in 10 years - Cs-134 has a half life of a little over 2 years. That means that every two years, half of a given amount of Cs-134 decays (ie, beomces no longer radioactive).
So if you had a theoretical sample with an orignal activity of 10 bq/kg of Cs-134-
2 years leter - 5 bq/kg
4 years later - 2.5 bg/kg
6 years later - 1.25 bq/kg
8 years later - .625 bq/kg
10 years later - .3125 bq/kg
In a 10 year time frame, only 1/32 of the original amount of Cs-134 will remain. Obviously, that could still be a lot if your orignal deposition was very high as it is in Fukushima. But here in the US, where levels are very low, Cs-134 is scarce now and will be be extremely hard to find in a few years.
This is a completely different thing than Cs-137, which has a half life of ~30 years. But if you bear in mind that the activites of Cs-134 and Cs-137 are roughly equivalent in most samples that BRAWM has taken, and that only 1/32 of the Cs-134 will still be here in ten years, one can see that cesium activities in the US ten years on will be right about ~50% of what they are today, barring any further fresh deposition.
It's still 300 years
> How much to worry for the next year...
It's still 300 years.
Our entire world has changed utterly and permanently when one can no longer eat without careful thought and it will remain like that for three hundred years.
Even if the weather is fine and the crowds don't pay a blind bit of notice.
Especially the US west coast. The Fort Bragg, California area received an astounding amount of reported radiation in March, April. Due to rain?
People in the Pacific North West was getting hot particles at half the level of Tokyo at five or ten per day per person, by breathing into the lungs, for all of March (and April?). Never mind that the reported figures in Tokyo have been a complete lie from beginning to end and the actual numbers in Tokyo may be hugely higher.
If all the Caesium-137 fallout _is_ still in the soil and affecting broad green leafy vegetable production such that they have to be grown under plastic in grow-bags / non-irradiated soil /and using non-irradiated well water, I don't see that a decline of Caesium-134 makes enough difference to be worth noticing. Particularly when it is only one of a devil's brew of over two hundred radioactive decay products being spewed from Fukushima, most of which are unreported-but-still-present. See Busby on uranium and plutonium deposition. BRAWM's single data point notwithstanding.
If one were argumentative one might ask why you picked Caesium-134. All it appears to do is to provide a false sense of reassurance. But one still can't eat broadleaf green vegetables for ten years! And in fact it's three hundred years, because of the Caesium-137.
I am not trying to give
I am not trying to give anyone a false sense of assurance, I just disgaree with your level of risk assesment.
Let's talk about the greens for a minute - I don't know if you're clear on this, but the primary reason that large, leafy greens are dangerous in a fallout situation is that they present a large surface area for the crap in the wind and rain to stick to. That is during the active fallout, which has largely passed. Check out how mant cubic meters of air the team tested in their last air test and came back ND. They are not particularly good at absorbing the crap once it is in the soil.
Please, take a chunk of time and peruse this document.http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp157-c6.pdf It will show you that there have been low levels of cesium in the food chain ever since they let the genie out of the bottle. I am not saying I am OK with that, I am just saying that this is not a new thing and that no doubt you, me, and everyone else has been exposed to these materials in very low quantities since day one. That goes for cesium strontium , plutonium, and all the rest. It's sad, but true, and not a new thing.
I am not part of the BRAWM
I am not part of the BRAWM team, but have learned more than I ever cared to know about this stuff in the last few months. Much of it I learned here, the crew has been very helpful.
To address your questions -
1) TEPCO estimates maximum rate of emissions to be one billion becquerels per hour. That sounds like a lot, but look at how it had been during peak.
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110719e...
At the blown up/burnt down/hell of a mess power plant, it is difficult for them to discern what is old and what is new, radiation wise, but best estimate is 1 billion bq/hr. Looking at their daily tests, sometimes all isotopes are not-detected in the air.
2) The ocean is, as we all know, very salty. Does rain have (large amounts of) salt in it? Distillation, evaporation, etc. I am NOT making light of the damage to the ocean, it bugs the hell out of me. But I don't see cesium laced rain from ocean evaporated water. No way.
3) There is some low-level radioactive crap in the soil in the US (though not necessarily all regions). There is/will be some in some the food. No argument to be had there that I can see. It can be "washed down" below the surface to a lower level in the soil (think 2"-6"-12"). It will become less available to the food chain in some ways and more available in others over the months and years ahead. The Cs-134 will be nearly gone in 10 years. (BTW, there has been radioactive strontium and cesium in our food here for years. Check out "atmospheric testing").
The real issue I believe is not levels of materials but levels of danger. We live in this fishbowl. One comparison that struck a chord with me - a liter of milk has around 50 bq of radioactivity from naturally occurring K-40. Peak radioactivity from cesium was around 1 bq per liter. So their is a whole lot radioactivity going on all around us without any of the manmade issues. This does not address chemical activity, and looking at where cesium is on the periodic table should give you an idea of it's chemical toxicity...it is moderately toxic. Hell, after it becomes non radioactive it is barium. Barium on your Cheerios? No thanks. But again - the levels are very low. I would love to see some numbers on how much lead or mercury or thorium is spread on each square meter of our planet every year from coal power plants.
Level of danger has to be determined in context though. Is Fukushima (as it is right now, not it's potential) more of a threat to you than non-radioactive air contaminants? Than plastic crap leaching into your food? I don't know for sure. But google any damned thing that you think might be dangerous, and you'll find a reason to be scared.
Safe foods? See the thread entitled "my safe foods", but it might not matter much. There are practical things you can do to reduce risk, just try to be level headed about it...
Rainwater distillation
I wanted to bring up something relevant to BC's point 2. For our rainwater measurements, we distilled rainwater down in order to concentrate the fallout particles and have lower detection limits. We did this by evaporating about 5 liters down to 1 liter in an oven. However, we weren't sure if we would lose any of the particles during the evaporation process.
It turns out that we didn't lose any of the radioactivity. We tried three different samples, distilled at different temperatures. The radioactive isotopes were attached to particles that were large enough that they did not evaporate along with the water. I think this is probably going to be true for the ocean as well.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
I was unable to post my
I was unable to post my reply, as it was flagged as spam.
I do not see anything recent
I do not see anything recent in our spam message list. Could you try posting again or give more details so I can fix this? Sorry about that.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
1. Your release estimate
1. Your release estimate ..".Up to around one billion becquerels of radioactive substances are believed to be released every hour from reactors No.1, 2 and 3. It is not known how accurate this figure is because it was worked out by taking readings of the air on the plant's premises.(NHk)"
Ok i have seen bc recycling tepcos data ,superb. I will point out.this is a pr nightmare they are trying to manage it.so if u choose to believe any thing this corporation is saying more power to u .I personally will be expecting these estimates to far exceed there data which isn't even data it's just pr spin.
Tdm- TEPCO can go straight
Tdm-
TEPCO can go straight to hell for all I care. I think I have quoted their data maybe twice. For the plant itself, there is no other source. I made note that there is no certainty of accuracy. Seriously, let me make it clear to you that I HATE this whole mess and sincerely hope that it leads us as a species to better choices, and that means shutting most nuclear power plants down, disarming the weapons to an absolute minimum, etc. And coming up with a plan, right now, to make the existing waste as safe as possible. Call me what you want, I am a guy with a brain and a keyboard but I am not a troll or industry hack.
Note that the last place testing outside Japan is UCBNE, to my knowledge, and that the air and rain, the key indicators for new fallout in the US, have been coming back not-detected.
I wasn't disrespecting u have a good idea of situation
Not trying to put you down for quoting tepco i have been reluctantly relying on there pr / data for months but really I was just pointing out no one should trust tepco as they have interests to protect.after all I have read it's not a leap of faith to think that Fukushima is far worse than tepcos pr is stating. I posted a study on ex vessel phenomena will have to revisit that .
Ocean evaporation forms clouds
"I don't see cesium laced rain from ocean evaporated water. No way."
Since the ocean is now radioactive and ocean evaporation forms clouds, this person either doesn't understand the basic cycles of our planet or is pretending not to. Don't believe a word of it, and look into the fundamentals for yourself.
http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclesummary.html
The ocean water itself is
The ocean water itself is not radioactive - it is the dissolved salts in it that are. Evaporation leaves said salts behind. Think distilled water - evaporation and distillation are similar processes.
Again, rain is not salty, is it?
Salt Spray
:(
Near the coast, with the sea breezes, salt spray is a fact of life.
The lighter isotopes, and to some extent the heavy isotopes, will waft in from the sea. This will be a weather report item throughout Japan soon enough.
The Aleutian Islands, Marianas and then the US West Coast can look forward to this radioactive salt spray. Water spouts may occasionally produce Black Rain, from polluted water sources, such as the North Pacific.
Neutrons hit atoms in water and make those radioactive
NY Times:
"In normal operations, some radioactivity in the cooling water is inevitable, because neutrons, the sub-atomic particles that carry on the chain reaction, hit hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the water and make those radioactive."
This statement is not quite
This statement is not quite true: Yes, in a reactor, there are neutrons that can be absorbed by hydrogen and oxygen. However, both H and O can absorb neutrons without becoming radioactive. Natural hydrogen becomes deuterium (still stable), while natural oxygen becomes O-17 or O-18 (both stable).
The actual risk from things becoming radioactive would be the ions dissolved in the water, not the water itself.
Tim [BRAWM Team Member]
NYTimes link
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/world/asia/13nuclear.html?pagewanted=3...
Thanks BC for responding.
Thanks BC for responding. I'm not the OP, but found you post helpful. Do you have any ideas on what foods may tend to bioacumulate isotypes over time? I was also wondering if fruit grown on trees(for next season) might be an option. I've heard, a lot about avoiding dairy and leafy greens, but wonder about things like next seasons grains, corn, etc. So many things to think about at the grocery store now.....
Jen
Jen- I have some ideas. Your
Jen-
I have some ideas. Your mileage may vary, I am not an expert, and it may not matter.
Dairy is likely to be "variable" due to hay. Please see -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1919831/pdf/pubhealthreporig...
Short version - hay contaminated with fallout can produce milk months after said fallout is no longer present in fresh grass. I believe that the team is testing some dairy hay, we will see results in the near future. Milk, cheese, meat, could be a problem. Buy aged cheese and pre-kaboom dried/evap milk if concerned.
Fruit on trees? I have been concerned about this. My kids eat fresh fruit that has no doubt been rained on. I would expect fresh fruit next season to be as OK as you can hope for, less going all south of the equator.
Leafy greens are an issue because of their large surface area which catches a lot of airborne crud, rain-borne crud, and splash-back from the ground. IMHO, largely no longer an issue. Current fallout is very low.
You are correct that there is lot to think about at the store. Does it matter what you eat? Maybe, but I don't know. Levels in Western US are quite low. Vanishingly low compared to normal, natural, kills people daily-but-know-one-pays-attention radiation.
I have taken measures. But I can be quite paranoid. Tongue out smile, etc... See the big "my safe foods" thread for the full on, I will eat out of my pantry till I move to Paraguay list. I don't think that we are near to that level of concern, but you know YMMV.
BC, Thanks for replying, I
BC,
Thanks for replying, I too can be quite paranoid. My family is still eating out of the pantry the majority of the time, I'm glad I stocked up back in March.
Jen
I was kind of joking about
I was kind of joking about the moving to Paraguay thing - I have changed a few things to avoid certain high-risk items, but the fact is, you can only do so much and for so long. This is the world we live in. In the end, everyone takes their chances, I suppose, and I was taking chances before this happened.
It's true, you can only do
It's true, you can only do so much. I'm focusing on trying to stress less and enjoy the summer weather while it lasts.
Jen