Perish from the earth
:
"That government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth."
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/gettyb.asp
Gettysburg Address
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth."
http://myloc.gov/exhibitions/gettysburgaddress/Pages/default.aspx
You do realize that it's
You do realize that it's over, right? Save your breath. The time for "we the people" and quoting the constitution and the Gettysburg address and waving the flag and tea parties is long long LONG past.
Just look at the stupid asinine arguments going on in DC, the press, and probably the water cooler re: debt and deficit. Everyone is fiddling while Rome burns. And most of the US populace still think in terms of Republican/conservative vs. Democrat/liberal. Stupid idiots.
Trite but true: People get the government they deserve, so look what we've willingly created and allowed to thrive.
What are you going to do? Take up arms? Against a worldwide military industrial complex that has advanced weapons and means to track you - that you permitted and funded in the name of patriotism. Or maybe you'll "vote the bums out" in the next election. Don't make me laugh. Elections are rigged. TPTB decide who we will choose from anyway. What a joke.
So all this lofty quoting of documents that are suddenly important - but have been ignored for decades - is too little, too late. There ain't no putting this genie back in the bottle. This beast owns our hide, and we gave it away with eyes wide open. It's our own fault.
The end is ugly and imminent.
Unfortunately, the small number of innocent have to suffer with the majority of guilty.
Harsh? Yes. But many of you remind me of an alcoholic that needs an intervention to be able to see reality, instead of continuing to live in a haze.
Ha!
;)
You make me laugh! ROFLMAO!!!
Are you a French, 'cheese eating surrender monkey'? Are you severely learning disabled? Were your parents, and grandparents siblings?
Seriously, what are you smoking?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/6911994/The-quiz-of-the-decade.html
In point of fact, the American, is the most determined, war-competent, fight-ready, armed citizen warrior, since Rome and before that Sparta.
;)
Nope. Not French. Never did
Nope. Not French. Never did drugs, never will. Red white and blue USA citizen, very large military family tracing back to WWI. Live in a large military area, with multiple bases and branches. Lots of military friends and family who discuss this regularly.
Your juvenile insults to my family and whether or not I'm learning disabled is typical, and you exemplify the blind idiocy that brought our once great country to it's knees. Grow up.
Recognize this ugly monster of a gov't that WE all allowed to happen for what it is. The reality of our collapse is frightening and painful, but true. It's over. The giant is mortally wounded, teetering and about to fall.
Like I said, quoting the constitution now is too little, too late. The time for that is long past.
Interesting, your references to Rome and Sparta are quite prophetic.
Rabbit Hunting?
;)
The recent and rapid increase in weapons ownership, by US citizens does not appear to reflect an interest in rabbit hunting or plinking.
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/billofrights
Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER
No. 07–290.?Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/08-1521
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf
McDonald v. Chicago (08-1521)
No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008
---------------
Let the record reflect that there are on the order of 250,000,000 small arms privately owned by US citizens.
There is an estimated private ownership of several billion rounds for those weapons.
I'm not American, but, when
I'm not American, but, when was the US any different than now? I mean, the economy was doing better at some other point in time, but the government being at the service of powerful companies that don't care about the regular guy? When was that any different anywhere? Is it possible that you feel nostalgia for a past that never existed?
You ask a sincere question
You ask a sincere question that requires an honest and objective heart to answer, regardless of our patriotic feelings.
Some will say we've been brainwashed to believe in something that never really existed except on paper, or only existed for a short time, except in the minds and hearts of good people. And maybe that was enough - until now.
Others will say that the country was hijacked by elitists and corporate interests in the early part of the 1900's, but good people did not recognize the incipient evil that little by little choked the life out of the US, robbing the people of freedom in exchange for a police state, seducing the people to crushing debt, dumbing them down with inferior schools, etc etc. And now we have a grossly powerful government of thugs who operate like a criminal gang - both in the US and worldwide - which has little to do with political party, and many who defend them in the name of "my country, right or wrong" or "might makes right" which is tantamount to the slippery slope philosophy of "the end justifies the means", further sealing our fate.
More and more good people are seeking alternate sources of news and information, unvarnished by the left vs. right agenda-wielding MSM or CNN / MSNBC /Fox spinmeisters.
It's hard to de-program and see things as they really are, though.
Really guys, US started to
Really guys, US started to be relevant as a world power around the time you describe as "the beginning of the end", by the way. Before that, what? Civil wars, slavery and/or exploited workers, incipient and lately full blown imperialism and all that based on the genocide of the native populations. Hardly a golden age.
with firmness in the right
:
Who said that it would be easy? Who told you there would be no struggle?
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/blabe2.htm
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres32.html
If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Abraham Lincoln Second Inaugural Address
Delivered - Saturday, March 4, 1865
A revolution of the wheel of fortune
Thomas Jefferson, slaveholder, agonized over the contradiction.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-jefferson-memorial
https://www.college.columbia.edu/core/instructors/civ/optitexts/jeffvirg...
And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference?
The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest. But it is impossible to be temperate and to pursue this subject through the various considerations of policy, of morals, of history natural and civil. We must be contented to hope they will force their way into every one's mind. I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.
Yeah, very nice pasta. But
Yeah, very nice pasta. But just so I understand the mythology, when was the US supposed to be "good" and a government by the people for the people? Just show me what part of American history do you refer to when talking about this idyllic moment in which the government was not a bunch of fools defending big money against the rights of the regular guy?
I repeat my previous question, aren't you feeling nostalgia for a past that never existed?
It is about today
Virtue in persons and nations seldom withstands the determined search light of perfection.
Can we name sad/evil and/or heroic/virtuous episodes in USA, British, German, Russian, French, Chinese, Greek, Egyptian or Japanese history?
Yep
Does that excuse the present flaws or define the future?
Nope
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticizing the US (I mean, why would I, were the English or the Spanish Empire any better?) I was just trying to determine the period of time in which the government was "good" as opposed to now, in which it only functions according to the economic interests of the elite. I mean, was there ever any government anywhere in the world that didn't work that way?
But just to keep it concrete, which period of american history you guys are feeling nostalgic about? You know, before the federal reserve and the mass media enslaved the minds of a nation of previously enlightened free thinkers?
Today
.
It is you that appears to be stuck on some horrible past, rather than me being stuck on some idyllic past. The principles are useful enough to stand on their own. Let us deal with the present and look to the past for ideals, successes, failures, evils, lessons learned, dangers and cautionary tales.
It serves little purpose to fault present day Spaniards for the long-dead conquistadors or the inquisition.
America is something of a melting pot. Some parts of our extended families tooled-over some other family members, generations ago.
Nothing herein excuses the evils of the present.
Yeah, I wasn't talking about
Yeah, I wasn't talking about that. I was referring to statements like this:
"you exemplify the blind idiocy that brought our once great country to it's knees"
In which moment was America a great country and when was it brought to its knees? I know there were other points in history in which economy was better, but apart from that when was it a great nation of freedom?
If you don't agree with the previous quoted statement, please, feel free to ignore my posts. I'm just a bit annoyed by expressions like "The government now it's just a puppet in the hands of [insert your powers that be of choice] and only cares about money"
When was the government not a tool in the hands of the elite to defend their own interest?
Straw Man Arguments
:
Well we sure are certainly concerned that you don't like laudatory statements which are not present on this thread or any previous thread on this blog.
Perhaps, this statement will be more on point.
"Your anonymous straw-man arguments are part of the problem today."
Is that better?
What do you mean, that exact
What do you mean, that exact quote is present on this thread:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4964#comment-14430
Just a hint: the USA was an
Just a hint: the USA was an independent New World colony of its European motherland. As such, it stood for the evolution and exaltation of the supreme Western spirit representing humanity's cultural apex. Can you piece a puzzle of what went wrong?
Yeah, the west depicting
Yeah, the west depicting itself as humanity's cultural apex is not exactly surprising.
Corporations are persons?
:
“Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.”
Perhaps this Supreme Court head-note represents non-binding obiter dictum, "said by the way". Perhaps it represents the personal opinion of Court Reporter, Bancroft Davis, a former president of Newburgh and New York Railway, and as such a fraud upon the court. Perhaps the phrase represents one of many examples of fraud ‘by the court’. Perhaps it represents a reality of a bygone era of national corporations rather than present-day international behemoths.
The modern global corporation, such as General Electric, Goldman Sachs, CITI, BP et al, does not reflect a gathering of US citizen and their legitimate interests such as ACLU, NRA, AFL-CIO or the FFA. Global corporations do not today, if they ever did, represent a citizen of these United States or any single state. The phrase does not represent a proper reading of Amendment XIV.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/118/394/case.html
“The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a state to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” (Authorship uncertain}.
U.S. Supreme Court, Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company, 118 U.S. 394 (1886), Argued January 26-29, 1886 - Decided May 10, 1886
http://www.thomhartmann.com/unequal-protection/historical-documents
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2204593/the_inherent_fallacy_of...
:
Jailing citizens for political speech?
:
“If the First Amendment has any force, it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.”
Au contraire mon frère! When one share of stock is owned internationally; there is no longer an ‘Association of Citizens’.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html
“If the First Amendment has any force,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the majority, which included the four members of the court’s conservative wing, “it prohibits Congress from fining or jailing citizens, or associations of citizens, for simply engaging in political speech.”
The ruling, Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, No. 08-205, overruled two precedents: Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, a 1990 decision that upheld restrictions on corporate spending to support or oppose political candidates, and McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, a 2003 decision that upheld the part of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 that restricted campaign spending by corporations and unions.
unfortunately, it seems that
unfortunately, it seems that popular government is in danger of perishing from the earth. We are no longer a government of by and for the people. We are a government of the corporations, by the corporations and FOR the corporations.
I concur
:
It is time for 'We The People of the USA', to remind the present regime, just WHO 'the government' is.
'The Present Regime' has adopted a 'preditor-prey' relationship to 'We The People'. The executive, legislative, judicial, corporate and media cabal forms 'The Present Regime'.
This many headed Hydra is deadly to our very continued existence on this orb called earth. It is not merely about greed and stupidity, though they are present. The actions of the cabal also reflect fear, loathing and actual-malice against 'We The People'.
Bringing this beast 'to-heal' is increasingly essential to Life, Liberty, Property AND Posterity.
:
Destructive of these ends
:
“Whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends”
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration.html
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the Thirteen United States of America
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Mutual & General Welfare
:
“The security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare”
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/artconf.asp
To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.
Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.
Promote the general welfare
:
WE the PEOPLE
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/preamble
United States Constitution - Preamble
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The PROTECTION of the laws
:
"Nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"
http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv
14th Amendment (Amendment XIV) Section 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Other wise destroyed
:
‘or any other wise destroyed’
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/featured_documents/magna_carta/
Magna Carta
29. “NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.”
-----------
The Magna Carta, (The Great Charter of the Liberties of England, and of the Liberties of the Forest) issued 15 June 1215, was substantially repealed in 1828, 1863 and 1969. The legal significance of the Magna Carta varied significantly for the mother/daughter nations after the USA declared independence.