ionizing air purifier + radioactive particles = ?
I realized my air purifier has both HEPA filters and "an ion chamber where airborne particles are charged with negative ions."
I have no idea if this might make it less, more, or equally effective compared with just HEPA filters by themselves. Any advice?
Thanks in advance!
I am not an expert in such
I am not an expert in such systems, but one thought I have is that by ionizing particles in the air it may make the system more effective at capturing particles that are smaller than the HEPA filter fibers alone can capture. There is the potential for an improvement, but I do not know how much of an improvement it could be.
I should also point out that our air measurements currently show undetectable levels of fission products from Fukushima, if this is your main concern.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Mark, if you could figure
Mark, if you could figure out how to maximize that potential, patent it! Seems like you'd have a good niche market, my friend.
This is the OP. Thank you
This is the OP. Thank you very much, Mark! I really appreciate your answer. I just wanted to know if it was likely to have the opposite effect than intended if it encountered fission products, like completely negate the HEPA filters for them or something, but it sounds like that's unlikely :)
(I got on this line of thought because I think the unit was probably designed for particles with a neutral charge. I didn't know how any positively[?] charged fission particles and the negative ions might potentially interact, if at all. I didn't take physics, and I regret it now. It's a lot more interesting than I assumed when I was a kid!)
Have used a few of these,
Have used a few of these, always with a pre-filter. With charcoal, particulate then electrostatic, and UV the air is pristine. R
Questions not Answers
I have a question, not an answer.
The beauty of electrostatic filters, is that there is no mesh size limitation. The plates may be 5 mm apart, but the induced electrical charge will attract and stick them to the multiple parallel plates like glue.
An electrical charge is induced on neutral dust particles, by a thin wire at the air intake side, between each pair of (stacked) parallel plates.
So the active electrostatic filters are built to attract one polarity + or - particle. The other polarity will simply float right on by. The polarity of the wire and the collector plates is optional and presumably reversible.
The 1st QUESTION about electrostatic filters, is:
Is the electrical polarity of the wire and plates universally set to attract or repel cations?
That question is easy enough to check with a meter (with a high resistance (100X) test probe, due to the high electrostatic voltages involved).
A slightly more advanced question would proceed from this factoid:
During some nuclear decay events, (BETA Emissions) the electrical polarity of the particle may change from neutral to positive as the electron is ejected from the nucleus.
Station blackout
When an active electrostatic filter loses AC electrical power, the potential (voltage) between the wires and plates will begin to decay.
What is the time constant (1/2 charge loss) for the unit? At some point, like 6 or 8 voltage decay half-lifes, following an electrical power loss, the charged particles would be 'free to travel'.
Also, a sudden polarity reversal, would be bad, such as following a lightening strike.
? What to do ? Not sure what
? What to do ?
Not sure what a homeowner would do with an electrostatic filter module loaded with radionuclide cations. The quandry is somewhat like The Skunk Ladder by Patrick McManus AKA George Irving. What to do, when a skunk falls into your youthful 'lion trap'.
The normal operating procedure is to: discharge the modules, remove from plenum housing, compressed air module cleaning, replace module and restart.
None of this sounds fun or healthy.
I'm hoping that the
I'm hoping that the combination (in my unit the ion chamber is surrounded by HEPA filters and forces the air out through them) means that any particles are caught in the filters rather than any plates.
Then, careful periodic disposal and replacement of the filters seems like it would do the rest of the job.
Misplaced Hope
:(
In my experience, the INTAKE filter is a particulate/HEPA filter. Then the pre-filtered air blows over a high-voltage wire, then the air passes through a stack array of equally and oppositely charged plates. Any non-electrically charged particle, radioactive or not, will stick to the plates.
I do not recall the polarity (+/-) of the wire and plate, or if the system is ungrounded (floating), postive ground or negative ground. Easy enough to change, if you don't mind voiding a warranty. (Just flipping a couple of wires)
So, any electrically charged radionuclide IONS might cling to the wire or the plates. The plates would be MUCH more effective.
In any event, when it comes time to remove the electrostatic filter module(s) and clean the plates with water or compressed air; we are back to the quandry discussed earlier.
:(
BRAWM - Please respond if
BRAWM - Please respond if you can. I have the same type of filter and have wondered the same thing.
I have the same question.
I have the same question.
bump Anyone ? Good
bump
Anyone ? Good question.
bump! Nobody will wager an
bump! Nobody will wager an educated guess?
Zeolite Air Filtration? Last link on this post-
This unprecedented disaster of Fukushima is really nobody's field.
The Nuclear Industry has always claimed this could never happen.
Nuclear meltdowns and releases typically happen and the damage gets done early and fast. I remember reading that in Chernobyl the first 40 days were extremely important in terms of exposure.
Fukushima is a 'different breed of cat', however. Due to the uncertain nature of the partial/full meltdowns and the ongoing earthquakes, the chain reactions keep starting back up. It's still possible that we may see further major releases and everyone should be aware of that. No one really knows how this is going to proceed.
If there are further major releases it would likely be considered wise to
_Monitor plume forecasts
_Reduce outside exposure at that time (and try not to play it perfectly- if the forecasts claim that plumes will arrive in 72 hours and be a danger for 5 days- it would not be 'alarmist' to pad those projections by 48 hours on either end to be cautiously safe. (Individual decisions)
_Miso soup, kale, kelp and seaweed treats are an excellent iodine supplement for the thyroid during such a time as well.
_Pregnant women, children, the very old and all of the very sick must be especially cared for as they are the most at risk.
_Ingestion can be physically remediated (to what extent I do not know- this is all new) with Zeolite (known as the molecular sieve) and other naturally decontaminating methods http://www.etszeolite.com/ (No, I'm not affiliated with this website or business)
_Inhalation is a toughie... Zeolite Filtration system? http://www.breathepureair.com/austin_air.html
Whoa LEO
Not so fast there, LEO - (the perfect). Zeolites have their uses, but home air filtration, may not be a good application. For an analogy, consider the Kool cigarette filter with micronite (AKA asbestos).
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69424.cfm
Zeolites are minerals that contain mainly aluminium and silicon compounds combined with water molecules. They are used as drying agents, detergents, and as water and air purifiers. Zeolites have been marketed as dietary supplements for hangover and for cancer treatment. Since they bind with other substances and may also neutralize stomach acid, they can interfere with many drugs when used together. When inhaled, Zeolite dust can cause certain type of lung cancer.
Adverse Reactions
Pulmonary Fibrosis (22)
Pneumoconiosis
Mesothelioma - a high incidence has been demonstrated in humans exposed to zeolite dust (23).
Zeolite particles produced statistically significant increases in percentage of aberrant metaphase in human peripheral blood lymphocytes and in cells collected by peritoneal lavage from exposed mice (1).
In animal studies, zeolites were shown to cause leukocytosis but also a decline of GM-CFU in the bone marrow and inhibition of myelopoiesis (16). Zeolites also provokes graft-versus-host (GvH) reaction in mice (14).
Herb-Drug Interactions
Since zeolites have chelating and ion-exchanging effects, they can potentially bind to tetracycline derivatives, quinolones, and iron resulting in decreased bioavailability.
Zeolites have also been shown to adsorb aspirin, theophylline, propanolol, and phenobarbital in vitro (4).
Zeolites may have antioxidant effects and can potentially interfere with the actions of some chemotherapy drugs.
Zeolites may also provoke graft versus host reaction (14) therefore, they should not be used with other immunosuppressant drugs or in transplant patients.
Because zeolites have buffering effect and can increase the pH of the stomach, premature disintegration of enteric coated medications may occur when used concomitantly.
Everyone will have to make their own decisions.
Let's not make this about me ok, 'anonymous'?
The link you provide is a header page and nothing else. Where did you copy and paste this data you have shared from? Can you provide the source? In the future it might be helpful if you just included it.
Let's also not 'muddy the waters'- if you are smart enough to understand that some Zeolites are harmful, then you are smart enough to understand how many different Zeolites exist: http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/abbey/an/an20/an20-7/an20-702.html
There are over 40 different forms of natural Zeolites and over 150 synthesized, so 'Zeolite Dust' doesn't do much to help identify them, one from another, does it? (Iodine-131 targets the thyroid and induces thyroid cancer, whereas regular Iodine can act as a shield thus protecting the thyroid- in such a case it wouldn't help to just say 'Iodine' would it? It causes confusion. Please don't do that. SOME anonymous posters might do that on purpose in this forum.)
It seems that the one to which you refer is 'Ereonite'. Again, Zeolite Dust could be any number of different forms. 'Ereonite' is certainly not what I refer to when I talk about the Zeolite which was used in Chernobyl.
'Ereonite' sounds quite nasty:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6092048
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/roc/twelfth/profiles/Erionite.pdf
I have never mentioned Ereonite, but yes, it would be bad to take Ereonite. I would also oppose taking 'Asbestos'. I would also advise against eating cat litter.
(???)
I am still researching and as I said, this is nobody's field. People will have to share information and make the best decisions they can.
The Germans developed a 'Prussian Blue' product called 'Radiogardaise' to remove cesium from the body.
http://www.rxlist.com/radiogardase-drug-patient.htm
Radioagardaise also has potential side effects so, for me, Zeolite Powder with Humic Acid seems the way to go for now.
If people are on prescription drugs you are absolutely correct, there could be side-effects related to removing heavy metals. I don't claim to be an expert I just claim to use my brain.
People know how to filter through the good and bad, it's attempting to wade through the purposeful disinformation which make such tasks 'unruly'.
I can't understand how a Zeolite air filter could harm someone, but if you are concerned then don't use it. Like I said, everyone will have to make their own decisions. Everyone is responsible for their own personal safety and health.
If people already have cancer, then I would encourage people to research Dr. Royal Raymond Rife as well. His therapy still exists outside the United States.
I would also encourage people who have cancer to research Dr. Burzynski who is practicing in Texas: http://www.burzynskimovie.com/
I just figure 'facing the devil' with 'eyes wide open' is the best way if you are forced to do it. We have been forced, but it's your decision. It's your health and no one will take better care of you then 'you'.
That means 'you'- the person reading this right now.
Reading Lesson
Reading Lesson
Leo,
There are many differences between industrial products, home-remedies, emergency (desperation) measures and evidence based pharmaceutical medications. The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, webpage for Healthcare Professionals, has a section for many ‘home-remedies’ including Zeolite.
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69424.cfm
The section contains a standard list of relevant subtopics, including: How It Works, Purported Uses, Research Evidence, Warnings, Do Not Take If, Side Effects, Special Point, Scientific Name, Common Name, Brand Name, Clinical Summary, Purported uses, Constituents, Mechanism of Action, Pharmacokinetics, Warnings, Adverse Reactions, Herb-Drug Interactions, Lab Interactions, Literature Summary and Critique, References
So, for example, if you click on ‘Warnings’, or use the following link, the following information will display.
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69424.cfm#Warnings
Warnings
Zeolites are carcinogenic when inhaled
Vulkansandkuren, a zeolite product marketed in Europe, was found to contain high levels of heavy metals including arsenic, lead, mercury, cadmium, nickel, copper, and chromium.
Do not apply liquid zeolite directly into the eyes or ears.
Oh My God you are right....
Oh My God you are right!
WHAT am I doing focusing on Fukushima when the REAL threat of...gasp...dare I say it...I'm gonna try...hang on...I have one palm on my forehead and my crumpled up fist next to my furrowed jaw and pursed lips...oh God...hear it comes...
...the threat of ZEOLITE awaits!
(Dunt-Dun-Dunnnnn!)
You could make that into a movie...from the makers of 'Reefer Madness', 'ZEO-EVIL-LITE' will KILL you."
We better wrap up Fukushima first though. Gundersen just detected Alpha Particles so this ship is sailing away.
Here I've prepared the BRAWM Team Exit Vehicle:
Will it make it into the 'Fukushima Section' of the BEIR VIII Report?
You'll have to watch 'ZEO-EVIL-LITE' in order to find out.
______________
"FUKUSHIMA EVENT REPORT
[‘Some’ nuclear materials involved)
Abstract::
Meh.
Summary:
Hm.
Conclusions:
Meh.
Heart really goes out to Japan.
They really should have gone with the G.E. Reactors.
Anyway...it's over. Wish them the best with Global Remediation Efforts.
Sure would like a 'piece' of that 'pie'.
[Unrelated Data Encountered]
During precautionary testing: Seashore and Bay Area Radon emissions seem to be increasing or at least higher than expected.
Probably related to 'solar cycle'.
*Determined Not To Be Fukushima Related.
Built a Website Forum That Said So.
*source: Sealed Team 7 UC Berkeley BRAWM Team Task Force Alpha Beta Gamma
Shameel Shamozzel HossEnPeppuh Corporated
FILED: 06/29/2011
END REPORT
______________
That should save some time.
And you're always welome!
Oh- "Reading Lesson'?
I think I addressed all of your concerns in my previous post.
All people have to do is start Googling 'Radiation Detoxification' and I guess you are saying that 'we'll have to hope' that they don't stick 'forks in their eyes' while they're opening the 'bottles of capsules'.
I don't disagree with that.
Chill - Leo the Perfect
Leo - the perfect
Don't be daft man!
This is an engineering blog. Engineers are comfortable with the plusses and minuses of materials, processes and compromises. We rake proposed solutions over the coals. It is what we do. It is who we are.
Anybody with half a brain, would use zeolite to filter the waste water at Fukushima. Few would hesitate to put a zeolite pre-filter on the Fukushima municipal water supply.
If I lived in Omaha, Nebraska and was flooded in, those zeolite cookies would probably be sitting on the shelf along side the KI emergency pills and the face mask. All unopened, but at the ready.
I do not know if there is a Fort Calhoun 10 mile radius nuclear event evacuation underway or not.
Chill
Just trying to keep it light and fluffy!
'Effective Dose' certainly does seem to meander quite a bit in and out of the 'Engineering Realm' doesn't it?
Get a sense of humor 'Anonymous the Anonymous!'
Did you truly not find my post funny?
???
"Anybody with half a brain, would use zeolite to filter the waste water at Fukushima. Few would hesitate to put a zeolite pre-filter on the Fukushima municipal water supply."
I agree. That was my 'admittedly comedic' point. Also, I don't believe that 'Zeolite Air Filtration' poses an 'imminent threat' to folks, but I haven't researched the studies.
Am I 'En Guarde'? I'll consider it.
Perhaps it's a result of the numerous 'Engineering References' I've read on the forum claiming 'Chernobyl only killed 48 people, 56 people...whatever the nonsense...
Cookies
So maybe those zeolite-containing cookies someone kept mentioning few weeks back were a bad idea...
I've not heard any bad stories about Zeolite cookies
But I am still researching. So far I have only heard good stories.
No side effects etc...best place to research would be in Chernobyl affected areas. Talk to the people who actually utilized the cookies etc...
Here is a very thorough piece on Zeolite which is apparently well respected:
http://www.pnas.org/content/96/7/3463.full?sid=3bcf8a83-3968-4c2a-a832-f...
Under the Nuclear Fallout Section: "In Bulgaria, zeolite pills and cookies were prepared for human consumption to counteract Chernobyl fallout"
Inhalation is completely
Inhalation is completely different from ingestion.
Dust in general is not good to inhale.