Hot Particles confirmed by Arnie Gundersen
Upsetting, but expected. Deeply disturbing.
Did I mention how upsetting this is???
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/06/arnie-gundersen-hot-particles-from.ht...
Upsetting, but expected. Deeply disturbing.
Did I mention how upsetting this is???
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/06/arnie-gundersen-hot-particles-from.ht...
I want hard data
I'm sorry, but I will not accept statements that leave holes in the information large enough to toss the Milky Way through like a frisbee.
Are there any official reports available that outline hot particle detection results?
How frequently were these samples taken and for how long?
Was the hot particle level consistent enough to come up with a count per day? If so, again, where are the reports that show the sustained level/hot particle count?
Who captured these hot particles?
Where are the filters that captured the hot particles now?
What isotopes did these hot particles consist of?
Were any hot particles detected anywhere besides the US west coast? If so, again, at what level and what isotopes?
If the hot particles existed in any significant amount in the Berkeley area, why didn't the BRAWM team capture/detect them (they say they have the ability to and would have)?
Who is this "average person" breathing the air that captured 5 hot particles per day in Seattle (or 10 per day in Tokyo) and what activities do they perform?
Does this average person go to work inside and therefore limit their hot particle intake?
If you stayed inside all day, do you dramatically reduce your hot particle count?
If you close off the vents in your vehicle while driving, does that dramatically reduce your hot particle count?
Does outdoor exercise dramatically increase your hot particle intake (faster respiration rate/higher air volume)?
There are lots of questions I have. Nobody has begun to answer them.
If someone can point me to clear and complete information on this, I would appreciate it. I'm not looking for information on what hot particles are. I'm looking for information on exposure *for this specific event*.
thank you!
I realize my response is more than 6 months after your post! I wanted to say Thank You for asking all the questions I've been thinking! Please respond it you ever received answers to the questions posted. --Seattle, WA
I cannot speak to what
I cannot speak to what Gundersen and Kaltofen specifically referred to, but check out Chapter 1.4.2, "Problem of Hot Particles," from Yablokov & Nesterenko's, "Chernobyl, Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment"
1.4.2. Problem of “Hot Particles” (pg. 21)
A fundamental complexity in estimating the
levels of Chernobyl radioactive contamination
is the problem of so-called “hot particles” or
“Chernobyl dust.” When the reactor exploded,
it expelled not only gases and aerosols (the prod-
ucts of splitting of U (Cs-137, Sr-90, Pu, etc.),
but also particles of U fuel melted together
with other radionuclides—firm hot particles.
Near the Chernobyl NPP, heavy large parti-
cles of U and Pu dropped out. Areas of Hun-
gary, Ger many, Finland, Poland, Bulgaria, and
other European countries saw hot particles with
an average size of about 15 μm. Their activ-
ity mostly was deter mined to be (UNSCEAR,
2000) Zr-95 (half-life 35.1 days), La-140 (1.68
days), and Ce-144 (284 days). Some hot parti-
cles included beta-emitting radionuclides such
as Ru-103 and Ru-106 (39.3 and 368 days,
respectively) and Ba-140 (12.7 days). Particles
with volatile elements that included I-131, Te-
132, Cs-137, and Sb-126 (12.4 days) spread
over thousands of kilometers. “Liquid hot parti-
cles” were formed when radionuclides became
concentrated in raindrops:
Radioactivity of individual hot particles
reached 10 kBq. When absorbed into the body
(with water, food, or inhaled air), such parti-
cles generate high doses of radiation even if
an individual is in areas of low contamina-
tion. Fine particles (smaller than 1 μm) eas-
ily penetrate the lungs, whereas larger ones
(20–40 μm) are concentrated primarily in the
upper respiratory system (Khruch et al., 1988;
Ivanov et al., 1990; IAEA, 1994). Studies con-
cerning the peculiarities of the formation and
disintegration of hot particles, their properties,
and their impact on the health of humans and
other living organisms are meager and totally
inadequate.
From III Introduction, (p. 221):
“Hot” particles have disintegrated much more rapidly than
expected, leading to unpredictable secondary
emissions from some radionuclides. Sr-90 and
Am-241 are moving through the food chains
much faster than predicted because they are
so water soluble (Konoplya, 2006; Konoplya
et al., 2006; and many others). Chernobyl ra-
dioactive contamination has adversely affected
all biological as well as nonliving components of
the environment: the atmosphere, surface and
ground waters, and soil.
From Ch. 9 (Introduction, p. 237):
With the catastrophe’s initial atmo-
spheric radiotoxins powerful irradiation caused by “hot particles,”
the soil and plants surfaces became contami-
nated and a cycle of absorption and release of
radioisotopes from soil to plants and back again
was put into motion (Figure 9.1).
... and finally, (p. 92):
5.5. Respiratory System Diseases
There is a marked increase in respiratory
system morbidity everywhere in the territories
contaminated by Chernobyl fallout. Respira-
tory system diseases, which include those of the
nasal cavity, throat, trachea, bronchial tubes,
and lungs, were among the first apparent con-
sequences of the irradiation and ranged from
nose bleeds and tickling in the throat to lung
cancer. Hot particles, or “Chernobyl dust,”
consist of particles containing radionuclides de-
rived from nuclear fuel melted together with
particles from metal construction, soil, etc. (see
Chapter 1 for details). These persist for long
periods in pulmonary tissue because of the low
solubility of uranium oxides. In the first days
after the catastrophe, respiratory problems in
the mouth, throat, and trachea in adults were
basically linked to the gaseous–aerosol for ms
of radionuclides. During this initial period I-
131, Ru-106, and Ce-144 had the most seri-
ous impact on the respiratory system (IAEA,
1992; Chuchalin et al., 1998; Kut’kov et al.,
1993; Tereshenko et al., 2004). Further dam-
age to the respiratory system was caused by hot
particles and external irradiation, and was also
a consequence of changes in the immune and
hormonal systems. The smallest hot particles,
up to 5 μm, easily reached the deepest parts of
lungs, while larger particles were trapped in the
upper respiratory tract (Khrushch et al., 1988;
Ivanov et al., 1990; IAEA, 1994).
Bronchopulmonary morbidity increased
quickly among liquidators in the contaminated
territories (Kogan, 1998; Provotvorov and
Romashov, 1997; Trakhtenberg and Chissov,
2001; Yakushin and Smirnova, 2002; Tselo-
val’nykova et al., 2003; and others). Liquidators,
whose health was supervised more carefully
than that of the general population, developed
marked restrictive lung disease due to a func-
tional decrease in lung elasticity (Kuznetsova
et al., 2004). Chernobyl dust was found in
liquidators’ bronchial tubes, bronchioles, and
alveoli for many years. The syndrome of “acute
inhalation depression of the upper respiratory
system” presents as a combination of a rhini-
tis, tickling in the throat, dry cough, and diffi-
culty breathing (Chuchalin et al., 1993; Kut’kov,
1998; Romanova, 1998; Chykyna et al., 2001;
and others).
Since this is terminology directly from the industry, it's a good bet this is a solid read on Gundersen's intended definition/usage.
I highly recommend reading the entire book (I've got a hard copy - out of print, you can buy a copy directly from Dr. Janette Sherman, at her website). It's a compilation of health data from various boots on the ground scientists: doctors, epidemiologists, botanists, etc., following Chernobyl. The health data presented will blow your mind. This body of data shines the light of truth on the nuclear apologists' shameful or ignorant assurances of safety and minimal consequences. This is the chronicle of the unnecessary and inexcusable ongoing sufferings of real people. It's also the guidebook of what to expect in our Fukushima experience.
What I find most interesting is to extrapolate the health consequences that will affect EVERYONE, based upon their level of initial and ongoing exposure. It's not a question of if, it's a question of how.
Here's a link to the .pdf.
http://www.strahlentelex.de/Yablokov%20Chernobyl%20book.pdfhttp://www.st...
MadMama
Forgot to add that I remember
Forgot to add that I remember Gundersen stating in one of his interviews that Kaltofen is not testing for strontium, for some technical reason (that one's getting old). Anyway, clearly he's not including strontium in his "detected hot particles" statements then, since they're not testing for it. Doesn't mean it's not here, just that it's not included in the testing library.
MadMama
MadMama- Thanks for the info.
MadMama-
Thanks for the info.
I had read some of that before, but what I would like to emphasize is that the deposition of these "hot particles" is going to be very much like the deposition of the fallout in general. In the case of Chernobyl, many areas in Europe received 2,000-10,000 bq/m2 of Cs-137. Keeping in mind that the best estimates for high levels of deposition in the US from Fukushima are maybe 200 bq/M2, I think it is fair to say that the levels of fallout AND any hot particles that may be here are very low.
Still, no one seems to have found any that I have seen. In both of the links I posted the scientists made note that the composition of the Chernobyl fallout was more varied and had more heavy, non-aerosol type crap in it. It is worth noting that Chernobyl just straight up dumped it's guts - no containment at all, raging on fire for days. The Fuku reactors didn't come apart quite as bad and a majority of the fuel stayed in the reactor area.
Re: Sr-90, it is a beta-emitter, a whole different set up is required to test for it versus the more easily detected gamma emitters like Cs-134/137, I-131, Am-241, etc.
Again, thanks for the info, nice to know someone is still in here:).
BC 12/31
I am not the OP, but I do
I am not the OP, but I do think that we were both looking to answers to the same question, and after 9 months of chasing such I can tell you where the key to the answers to said questions is hidden....and that is in the semantics used.
The term "hot particle" is not in the dictionary, and I think when this started a few of here (myself included) were envisioning them as "fuel fleas", super-high-activity, non-solouble nasty metals (think plutonium, americium, etc). The idea that the US received a bunch of that stuff is especially terrifying.
Now it has become pretty evident that if such materials made it here, they were in very small quantities, and to my knowledge no on has one in captivity.
If you read on the bottom page 5 - http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.4853v4 -
"The exact process and why it would be se-
lective requires further investigation, but we can speculate
that the release of fission products to the atmosphere is the
result of evaporation of contaminated steam, in which, e.g.,
CsI is very soluble. Chernobyl debris, conversely, showed a much broader spectrum of elements (Devell et al., 1986),
reflecting the direct dispersal of active fuel elements."
Or try this - http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1111/1111.4141v1.pdf - bottom of page 3 - "Isotopes such as Ru-130, Ce-141,and Np-239 (this is a kissing cousin to Pu) and other fission products that were detected after the Chernobyl accident in both Europe and North America were not found in the data"
And if you bother to check out Mr. Kaltofen's APHA presentation, he does it make it clear that while Am-241 was detected in one sample in Japan, but not here stateside.
So now when I hear people using the term "hot particle" regarding FK fallout in the US I assume it to mean any radioactive particle. I-131, Cs-134, Cs-137 especially. Did we get that stuff? You bet. Is it as bad as plutonium dust? I think not. And if we start calling any radioactive particle a "hot particle", then radon daughters qualify, do they not? How about if I told you that your home's air could easy have "hot particles" radioactivity in the 10-50 bq/m3 range, far higher than any stateside activity seen from Fukushima?
It is very helpful to frame the contamination we received from Fukushima against the backdrop of past events - ie, fallout from NTS, global testing (the big one), and Chernobyl. All historical data I can find indicates the levels of fallout from global testing dwarfed what we are seeing now, and with a much punchier blend of isotopes mixed in.
This is my 2 cents worth, and it sure seems right to me and I have thought a hell of a lot about this. If someone out there sees it different, I'd like to hear about it.
BC12/30
Thank You
I appreciate your post and research!
Hey BC - So it seems that the
Hey BC - So it seems that the linked data (yours, tdm's & mine) all indicates that hot particles are either fuel fragments, or radioactive particles bound to another material... giving it mass greater than the radioactive atom on its own. If that's the case, then I think that lumping radon gas in with hot particles is not consistent with the intended usage. That's not to say that radon doesn't present its own set of very serious hazards that demand equal respect.
I always circle back to the calculation of kg/m2. Thank you for the article you linked a while back (another thread, I believe). It stated that the kg/m2 calculation was subject to soil density, etc. Not being a physicist, I don't bring a heck of a lot of physics background to the table, but I don't understand the reason for the subjectivity. If we are starting with a straight bq/kg measurement, which is the question I originally posed because that is the measurement format that the private labs, BRAWM & Japan are all using, and the pCi/g is easily converted to bq/kg, then the density of the sample has already been standardized to arrive at the /kg measurement. From here to m2 should require a simple multiplier to arrive at bq/m2. However, you & BRAWM are using a 25 multiplier, Japan is currently using a 65 multiplier. There's a huge difference there.
I'm not able to determine which multiplier Yablokov & Nesterenko used in their book I referenced. They just jump back & forth between Ci/km & bq/m2, no /kg mentioned.
Arriving at a universal multiplier is important, because it's the only way we can be sure we are comparing apples to apples, and it's the way we can determine comparable risk scenarios. Case in point, the soil samples I collected indicated a Fukushima contributed combined Cs134&137 of 6.46 bq/kg.
x25 = 161.5 bq/m2
x65 = 419.99 bq/m2
Big difference, and if it's the 65 multiplier we should be using, then my southern California samples indicate a much higher Fukushima cesium fall-out (which would be a marker for additional hot particles), than the 200 bq/m2 you reference as our stateside heavy contamination.
I'm wishing someone could provide some clarity on this, because a lot is riding on the answer.
Thanks,
MadMama
MadMama- Yeah, all sources
MadMama- Yeah, all sources agree that the traditional definition of hot particle is not the typical stuff that BRAWM is seeing but the heavier stuff. And BRAWM didn't see any, nor did University of Seattle or the folks in Chapel Hill. So that's why I think that perhaps some liberties have been taken with the term.
One thing that I did notice is that a hot particle can also be defined as any particle with a specific activity of 4bq or more. This could be a large cesium particle, I suppose.
Back to deposition estimates and the bq/kg into the bq/M2 conundrum - I did a pretty solid write up on Berkeley's deposition based not on bq/kg but using BRAWM's rainfall measurements. I recall that it was right around 65bq/M2 combined Cs. For my own location, I used neither the 25 nor 65 factor but basically just a rough surface area conversion. Basically, I know that about one square foot of my soil, scraped down about an inch, weighs about 1.5 kilos, and that each kilo of my soil contains about 0.6 bq/kg of Cs-134 and a similiar quantity of Cs-137. So that's 1.2bq/kg (from this event) times 1.5 kilos per square ft times ~10ft2/m2 = around 20 bq/M2 combined activity from this event. Rough, sure, but probably real close. I'd be willing to be you a crisp 20 that all the Cs-134 and Cs-137 from FK is in that top inch, esp after seeing that there is still plenty of decades old Cs-137 in that top layer. This stuff migrates very slowly....and I live in the desert.
How did you take your sample? Core style, or pan of brownies style?
BC1/1
Finding hot particles is like finding a "needle in hay stack"
Strange thing is iaea data suggests it is most important to test for and locate these "hot"particles for public safety's sake but to my knowledge no gov agency or nuclear agency is coming forward with the data in Japan close in or America.that's a real eye opening fact to me.with unit three burning mox ( 7 % plutonium ) and blowing up sky high my guess is Japan close in is contaminated with hot particles the pacific definitely and the west coast i have no data but I thought they were confirmed to have made the journey ? ...tdm
http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/33/043/33...
"There exists no widely accepted definition for the concept of a 'hot particle'. It is often used in the meaning that the particle is highly active; sometimes it is used for particles having high specific activity. Khitrov et at. (1994) have suggested the following definition: a hot particle is a particle with any radionuclide or composition with size up to 50 - 80 ^m and activity over 4 Bq. The National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements (NCRP 1999) states that "hot particles are considered to be > 10 \im but < 3000 |um in any dimension. Hot particles smaller than 10 (xm may be treated as general contamination...". Radioactive particles originating from atmospheric nuclear tests are historically referred to as hot particles. This concept was later attributed to fuel fragments originating from the Chernobyl accident."
"In the present thesis, nuclear fuel particles are studied from the perspective of their characteristics, atmospheric transport and possible skin doses. These particles, often referred to as 'hot' particles, can be released into the environment, as has happened in past years, through human activities, incidents and accidents, such as the Chernobyl nuclear power plant accident in 1986. Nuclear fuel particles with a diameter of tens of micrometers, referred to here as large particles, may be hundreds of kilobecquerels in activity and even an individual particle may present a quantifiable health hazard."
Thanks for the link tdm, I
Thanks for the link tdm, I will read it.
Good to see you are still here as well.
BC 12/31
hot particles and lack of evidense
VB,
Hello. My name is Ken Willis and I live in the Seattle area. I to heard of the hot particle issue but have not been able to confirm any of the info. I agree with your assesment and was curious as to whether you had found any info to back up Mr. Gundersens accusations. I have not been able to find ANYONE at the University of Washington who can back these claims up. If you could get back to me with any info you know I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you for your time.
Here's someone that knows what to do....
I have not been able to find ANYONE at the University of Washington who can back these claims up.
===========================
HURRAY!!! We have someone here that actually checks these wild claims out with the faculty of a University.
For some reason, people have been running to their local activist group that has a political axe to grind, in order to get valid information.
Activist groups are NOT the place to get good info; they LIE to support their cause. Thankfully, we have places like Universities, where people are devoted to the concepts of truth and knowledge and not pushing some political agenda.
However, it doesn't do us any good to have these Universities unless we use them.
Update on hot particles in Seattle
Hi Ken,
I just posted an update about the hot particles in Seattle issue a few days ago here: http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4503
It is the latest info I heard from Marco Kaltofen, the researcher who was working on the hot particle issue with Arne Gundersen of Fairewinds.com.
Hot Pockets
GOOD QUESTIONS! Fairewinds, which I listened to at first, seems to be fear mongering without backup for website hits. Just an aside, took my geiger counter (radiation alert monitor 4) to my car air filter today, just for fun. Nothing. It's been in place the whole accident, nothing but background. You'd think if there were bunches of the very hot particles trapped by the filter, I'd get SOME sort of higher read at some point on the filter. Nada. So, where the heck is some hard data already? I tried to get the University of Washington to test another building air filter of late, but the only researcher who has been kind enought to reply to me (Andreas Knecht) stated "Our air filters were
exposed to 100'000 m^3 of air per day. This corresponds to normal
breathing for 10 years... Only due to this massive air intake were we
able to see anything at all. We stopped our measurements in early April as the activity had fallen below our detection limit." ALSO: "- The long lived isotopes that are in the atmosphere will be there for a
very long time. In fact the biggest driver of the total amount of
fission products in the atmosphere comes from testing of nuclear bombs
in the atmosphere in the sixties. About 100 times more radioactivity was
released in those tests then that due to Fukushima and Chernobyl combined.
Depending on your age you've already been exposed to much more
radioactivity from those sources than what was blown across the ocean
from Japan."
So because we already live
So because we already live in a poisoned cess pit, it's fine to keep dumping shit on our heads?
Did any of the atmospheric testing in the sixties involve a 4 month (and counting) uncontrolled release of radiation?
Seems like apples to oranges.
Please define this buzz word, "fear mongering" I keep hearing.
Metallic Taste Causes
There are many causes other than radiation:
http://www.bettermedicine.com/article/metallic-taste/causes
So why would they knowingly
So why would they knowingly pollute the environment so substantially with atmospheric testing?
Thanks, Sam, for your reply from the thick of things in Seattle.
That's how it was back in
That's how it was back in the day. Nuclear explosions everywhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfEMnx-Nz-w&feature=related
Fukushima is nothing.
Awesome nuclear mushroom
Awesome nuclear mushroom cloud!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsTRxXvQY0s&feature=related
Love the comment here with 56 likes:
"Masturbation? material."
moodswyng - 1 month ago - 56
btw
Am in Seattle.
Quoting mark -maybe u can help explain a hot particle for us
I'm still trying to get a handle on what "hot particles" are — they may be something quite different than the small aerosolized fission products we are detecting. Gunderson has mentioned these before, in conjunction with research being done by a researcher at Worchester Polytechnic. I have heard of no other reports or studies on these particles, so I think it would be great to see some of their data.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4503
"I'm still trying to get a
"I'm still trying to get a handle on what "hot particles" are"
AND
Your a member of the BRAWM Team !!!!!
WOW you have destroyed any faith what so ever in the Berkeley BRAWM ability to inform regarding the Fukushima accident with that PATHETIC comment.
Unfortunately, no
Hi Tdm,
I wish I could help explain hot particles. But, I can't give any more information than what's already been stated in this forum. I'm just hoping to get more information on the amounts transported to the US and how much I should actually worry about it. It's very frustrating to have people out there saying "this stuff could kill you" and not have at least the same level of info we have from the BRAWM team and the various government agencies.
I am sure I can find a study contradicting this one this may
Be good though to ease the mind ///////qoute
It has been suggested that spatially non-uniform radiation exposures, such as those from small radioactive particles ('hot particles'), may be very much more carcinogenic than when the same amount of energy is deposited uniformly throughout a tissue volume. This review provides a brief summary of in vivo and in vitro experimental findings, and human epidemiology data, which can be used to evaluate the veracity of this suggestion. Overall, this supports the contrary view and indicates that average dose, as advocated by the ICRP, is likely to provide a reasonable estimate of carcinogenic risk (within a factor of ~ ±3). There are few human data with which to address this issue. The limited data on lung cancer mortality following occupational inhalation of plutonium aerosols, and the incidence of liver cancer and leukaemia due to thorotrast administration for clinical diagnosis, do not appear to support a significant enhancement factor. Very few animal studies, including mainly lung and skin exposures, provide any indication of a hot-particle enhancement for carcinogenicity. Some recent in vitro malignant transformation experiments provide evidence for an enhanced cell transformation for hot-particle exposures but, properly interpreted, the effect is modest. Few studies extend below absorbed doses of ~ 0.1 Gy.
http://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/23/1/301
Alternate view on danger ncluding data
Scroll down to ignore his views and see oak ridge nat lab data .
http://nuclearhistory.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/the-hot-particle-problem/
So Not great.
Health Effects
How can alpha particles affect peoples health?
The health effects of alpha particles depend heavily upon how exposure takes place. External exposure (external to the body) is of far less concern than internal exposure, because alpha particles lack the energy to penetrate the outer dead layer of skin.
However, if alpha emitters have been inhaled, ingested (swallowed), or absorbed into the blood stream, sensitive living tissue can be exposed to alpha radiation. The resulting biological damage increases the risk of cancer; in particular, alpha radiation is known to cause lung cancer in humans when alpha emitters are inhaled.
The greatest exposures to alpha radiation for average citizens comes from the inhalation of radon and its decay products, several of which also emit potent alpha radiation.
How do I know I'm near alpha emitters and alpha particles?
You must have specialized equipment to detect alpha radiation. Generally, this equipment is expensive and requires an expert to operate it.
The one alpha-emitting radionuclide that you can easily measure yourself is radon. Inexpensive home test kits are available to test your home for radon from hardware and often grocery stores.
http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/understand/alpha.html
What we really need here...
We need Marco Kaltofen and the BRAWM team to discuss their respective data in light of the finding of "hot particles." Based upon other posts on this site, they are not strangers to each other.
That's the bottom line here folks.
The rest of us are just observers---KEENLY interested observers, of course, but just observers none the less.
This is THE most upsetting news on here
Can the BRAWM team comment on this, please?
Marco at WPI mentioned this several weeks ago, so I was not surprised by this news. But, I was hoping that maybe the final conclusion wasn't as bad as this.
Is there anything more to say??? I guess, what can be said? This poison came over from Fukushima, many of us breathed in these hot particles, now it is in the hands of The Fates.
Can anyone add anything?
Damn it
Well unfortunately his statements seem very credible. air filters don't lie! human lung are air filters. so thanks tepco, ge and Japan for my hot particles.very depressing time(30 years perhaps) will tell us it's human implications .
I warned people of this at
I warned people of this at the onset. All the fuss about safe foods; meanwhile, their lungs were filling up with radionuclides. Sad.
I noticed that this time
I noticed that this time Gunderson mentioned strontium and cesium as "hot particles", which kind of expanded on what he had said before. Previously, it had sounded like these "hot particles" were americium, uranium, plutonium, etc...big heavy alpha emitters.
Tell the truth, this latest fairewinds vid where he mentions these other materials made me feel a little better. Of course you inhaled cesium if you lived on the west coast, that's a given. How could you not? I am not happy about it, but it's a fact, and not just for the west coast, either.
Something else I have not heard addressed by Gunderson, or really anyone - how does this compare to Chernobyl? I know for damn sure that when Chernobyl went up it was NOT promarily I-131 and Xe-133, there was tons of cesium, strontium, and other nasties that went airbourne in a big way, and I would bet that plenty of people in Europe and evn the US had a chance to breathe that poop.
One tragedy doesn't lessen the next does it
But u are correct in the sense of our exposure here are usa measurements post chernoble plume.It would be neat to see a air filter from 1986 analyzed for all radionuclides.
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/cbm/Rad7c.html
It doesn't lessen the next
But, it does give us some idea if this is more serious with potentially greater and faster consequences or not.
But, you are right in that a comparison that says "This disaster is going to damage your body just as badly as the last one" isn't worth a lot.
Tdm- Thanks for the
Tdm-
Thanks for the link.
This ain't our first rodeo. I reckon that if Mr. Kalotofen had been testing Seattle's air circa 1986, he would have seen a similar picture.
So it goes.
BC
How many more reactors need
How many more reactors need to melt down before energy from nuclear fission is deemed obsolete?
Maybe barbaric is the term?
Maybe barbaric is the term?
metallic taste
I mentioned before on this forum that I experienced a slight metallic taste several times in March and April. I'm in AZ. I also felt tingling in my lips when I tasted the metal. I also felt intense pin-pricking sensation for 2 days around March 19th. And 3 times now, my muscles have felt on fire and my liver has become swollen and painful. My eyes have also been quite red, but it has been sooooo windy this spring that the red may be from the dust.
I have never had these stingy/prickling or metallic tasting experiences before. I continue to feel pin-pricks off and on, but not very much, just an occasional ouch from time to time. Feels like a bug biting.
I know with every cell in my body that these symptoms are radiation related. And those who cannot feel it are simply not that sensitive and should be happy about that!
Here's a question: Does anyone think that the large amounts of noble gases that were released could be contributing to the huge winds this spring? Or is it simply global warming...
Just as a reminder to people
Just as a reminder to people inquiring about symptoms, here is a thread where they are discussed in more detail:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/4473
The metallic taste and tingling tongue etc are characteristic symptoms of radiation exposure/toxicity. An interesting way of verifying this is to go to the homeopathic materia media sites where Rad brom (the remedy most often prescribed for radiation poisoning and made from radium) symptoms are listed:
http://abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Rad-b
These symptoms are an indication that the person may have been exposed to radiation and the remedy made from radium bromide is prescribed to alleviate the symptoms. Note that in homeopathy, the remedies are usually not made from the exact same substance (so not very common to see a remedy made from cesium or uranium prescribed) but from a "similar" substance. Hence rad brom is prescribed for exposure to a variety of radioisotopes. Does it work? I don't know yet! Still undergoing an experiment (self-imposed)...
I know very little about
I know very little about homepathic medicine, but I'll tell you this...I would not intentionally ingest radium in any quantity.
First, do no harm.
Don't worry, homeopathic
Don't worry, homeopathic remedies of the 30c potency and above have no detectable bits of the gross substance in them. Neither would I ingest any of the actual substance, intentionally!
Homeopathy is worthless
Homeopathy does not work. You're just taking a placebo. If that makes you feel better, that's peachy. Just don't go around telling people it will cure them of anything.
The Queen of England has her
The Queen of England has her own Royal Homeopath.
When there are no Hot Particles...
Mr. Gunderson tends to over dramatize at times. "People undergoing radiation treatment for cancer report a metallic taste"... Well, I don't know what sort of Neanderthal treatment such people are undergoing, but modern radiation therapy, with the exception of brachytherapy for prostate cancer, for example, does not inject/attach any Hot Particles (a term that seems to have been created in the last 3 months) to the patient. The treatment area is irradiated with xrays, gamma rays from radioactive sources such as cobalt 60, or protons. Hot, sure. Particles, no.
And, the primary emissions from TMI were not "Hot Particles": "According to the Rogovin report, the vast majority of the radioisotopes released were the noble gases, Xenon and Krypton. The report stated, "During the course of the accident, approximately 2.5 million curies of radioactive noble gases and 15 curies of radioiodines were released.""
And for those thinking of Hot Pockets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw7xPaL56Ow
"Hot Partices"
maybe not so recent a term...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9525422
Gundersen's video yesterday...
http://www.fairewinds.com/
as near as I can tell (I just watched it), Arne did not say the hot particles caused the metallic taste - and it was, as he said, anecdotal, reports when the plumes came through or rained down.
Gundersen is not overly dramatic and in fact his presentations are imho way too laid back.
Many posters here mentioned a variety of things like metallic taste, metallic looking clouds (cesium eas actually used by the military in cloud seeding to try to affect light), irritation of the lungs and breathing, etc.. Infections in skin and throat and sore throats and sinus infections might be the affect of hot particles I would think..
But based on the reports these clouds blasted across the US to Europe and so this exposure to hot particles was across the United States and northern hemisphere.
Hot particles have been discussed in reports for years. The picture of lung tissue damage from ONE hot particle is scary. It looks like a little sparkler in the lung grilling the lung tissue. Ick.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/bone_marrow_transplantati
Side Effect: Changes in your sense of taste
Many patients will complain that foods just do not taste the same as they did before treatment. A metallic taste in your mouth is common. This will resolve over time.
Recommendations
Tart fruits or fruit-flavored sourballs might decrease the metallic taste in your mouth.
Foods that are chilled might be better tolerated, such as milkshakes, flavored gelatin, pudding, and applesauce.
Clean your mouth thoroughly before you eat to help improve the taste of food.
Try using strong flavorings or seasonings, such as salad dressings, to help provide food with more pleasant flavor.
If your taste is really dulled, you can try increasing the aroma of the foods you eat. Usually if the food smells good, it will also taste good.
Liquid nutritional drinks might be helpful.
There was a thread a week
There was a thread a week ago from someone who went through Iodine treatment for thyroid cancer that described the taste.
Sooooo...you think there is
Sooooo...you think there is any similarity in the total dose from thyroid (or any other radiation procedure) and what you're picking up from the environment?
NOT.
Yes, you can experience a metallic taste when exposed to radiation. But the exposure (unless you live next to Fukushima) is so low that this is simply a red herring. Lots of other reasons to experience a metallic taste.
Please engage your brain and apply some logic to your life...basing your actions just on fear and emotion will get you nowhere but hurt.
+/- 5-50%
+/- 5-50%