How Many Flights From San Francisco To Washington DC Would It Take To Contaminate The Drinking Water Which The Flight Crew And
I was also wondering about the following:
_Let’s say you took 1 Pound of soil on a commercial plane. How many flights
would it take from San Francisco to Washington DC, to contaminate soil
to the point of affecting growth?
_How many flights would it take from San Francisco to Washington DC, to
contaminate 1 Lb. of Vegetables like leafy greens, spinach, potatoes
to some of the levels of detection we have seen?
_How many flights would it take from San Francisco to Washington DC, if you
flew a cow, (in coach of course), for the cow’s milk to become contaminated
with Cesium to some of the highest levels which have (up to this point)
been detected?
_How many flights from San Francisco to Washington DC, would it take for a
woman’s ‘breast milk’ to become contaminated?
Thanks-
Leo


The airplane analogy … sucks!
.
Critiquing comparisons
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2014693490_nukemonitors0...
Vetter and his colleagues try to put the health risks in perspective by pairing their data with calculations of "effective doses." For example, a person would have to drink 134 liters of the rainwater with the highest radiation levels to equal the average radiation exposure from flying cross-country. And radiation is dropping off quickly.
Robert Alvarez, senior scholar at the liberal think tank Institute for Policy Studies and a former DOE deputy assistant secretary for national security, is critical of those kinds of comparisons, which are also offered by EPA and health agencies.
Isotopes like iodine-131 are not part of normal background radiation, and have unique properties that background radiation does not, like accumulating in the thyroid gland, he pointed out.
"The doses are extremely small, and so, too, are the risks," he said. "But they liken it to everyday life and it's not like everyday life. You shouldn't have radioactive iodine even in tiny quantities finding its way into your milk supplies."
I agree one hundred percent!
I agree one hundred percent! It makes me extremely angry to constantly see that comparison by our agencies. It makes me feel like they think that people are stupid and will actually believe that iodine 131 is the same as natural radiation. This type of comparison is what has people's guard down and as such they are not being careful. People must understand that no unnatural radiation is good for you period and need to stand up to our local and federal government to do testing well not next year food items such as rice, beans, potatoes, tree fruits, wheat, rye, oats, foods that are staples in most people's diets. I have been calling whole foods and asking questions as well as my local representatives, EPA, and others. I want answers!
Adult 3X ~ Child 30X Dose
A 3 year Adult Internal exposures in 2 Months, would approach a 30 year childs dose. However, childhood does not LAST 30 years. This 'kinda-sorta' sounds like a countable infinity situation.
So, children, DON’T eat your vegetables!
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/24_02.html
A group of doctors has found that the estimated level of accumulated internal radiation exposure for people living in Fukushima Prefecture has exceeded 3 millisieverts. The researchers, including doctors who have provided medical care to A-bomb survivors, conducted analysis on the food and urine of 15 residents in Iitate Village and Kawamata Town in Fukushima Prefecture. These areas are about 40 kilometers from the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.
They estimate that residents have been internally exposed to up to 3.2 millisieverts for about 2 months, measuring from the date of the accident in March until early May. Three millisieverts is 3 times higher than the long-term annual limit for ordinary people recommended by the International Commission on Radiological Protection. One of the researchers, Nanao Kamada, says people should refrain from eating vegetables grown in the area where high levels of radiation have been detected.
Friday, June 24, 2011 07:00 +0900 (JST)
Airplane flight comparison
Dear Leo,
I think you might be misunderstanding the point of the airplane flight dose comparison, so I would like to repeat and extend my earlier comments about it:
First, I would urge you to read the FAQ on Total Effective Dose Equivalent and the FAQ on comparing dose from airplane flights to other doses.
The "airplane dose" comes from an increased exposure to cosmic rays at higher altitudes — cosmic rays are high-energy particles that pass happily through the hull of the aircraft and through our bodies. They give us a measurable radiation dose, and this happens continually to us even on the surface of the earth. At higher altitudes, there are slightly more cosmic rays, and the difference can actually be measured. For the most part, cosmic rays are ionizing, but they do not induce very much activity in other materials, so the elevated radiation dose is experienced only during the duration of the flight.
In the end, the idea is that doses from different sources — internal vs. external, full-body vs. single tissue, alpha vs. beta vs. gamma — can be compared after applying the appropriate weights to each. The point of comparing doses is not that exactly the same kind of radioactivity is going on, but the dose is a quantity that can be calculated from the different sources and compared.
To try and make a crude analogy here, radiation dose is something like heat. Say we have a car idling in a parking lot. There are different sources of heat on it — light from the sun, infrared radiation from the hot pavement, heat from being in contact with the air, and of course heat generated by the chemical reaction of internal combustion. If we study each component in detail, we could make a model for how much heat is added to the car from each source and compare them. Heat is the common quantity here.
Now say we have a flashlight in the car and we turn it on. How much additional heat does it add? Well, if we study how much light is produced, and how much heat is dissipated by the current flowing through the bulb, we could come up with an estimate of the added "heat dose" to the car. The flashlight is different from the other sources, but that doesn't mean that we can't compare the heat that it generates to other sources of heat. For example, we could say how many flashlights would be equivalent to the heat that the sun adds to the car, or how many flashlights would be equivalent to the heat that the engine adds to the car. The equivalence is illogical in the sense that maybe 1,000,000 flashlights would be needed to equate to one "sun dose," and you could never fit all those flashlights into a single car. But it is logical in the sense that the comparison gives the scale of the heat from the flashlight in terms of something that we might have more experience with.
So when you have a quantity that can be hard to visualize, like heat — or going back to the situation at hand, radiation dose — the question becomes how best to compare one quantity that is not well-understood with one that is. We have chosen the "airplane dose" as our dose comparison. It is not perfect, but at least it is something that many people have experience with and know is not much of a radiological risk. And it's a lot better than some other comparisons (e.g., banana equivalent dose).
If you have further issues about the dose equivalences, please bring up those specific points and we can discuss them.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
BRAWM decided to calculate using the airplane analogy
Whether the 'airplane analogy' can be used to calculate amounts of
radioactive isotopes in milk, vegetables and tap water has nothing to do
with my understanding, Mark.
It does, however, have to do with the 'legitimate scientific effectiveness'
of the mode of calculation which you and BRAWM continue to defend.
The 'airplane analogy' is merely the 'next generation' of Nuclear industry
propaganda. I assure you it has the same 'made to order' scientific
standing as '40 X-rays' and 'Banana-radiation'. Thank you for the
reference.
Now as to the 'scientific effectiveness' of the 'airplane analogy' you can
either calculate how many trips from San Francisco to DC it would take to
'contaminate a cow's milk through ingestion of radioactive isotopes
delivered through atmospheric distribution and the water cycle', or you
cannot.
Are you stating Mark, that the 'airplane analogy' fails to effectively
describe the realities of the Fukushima Fallout as it pertains to a cow's
milk become contaminated as well as the other examples I provided within my
question?
Bump...
Bump...
Thyroid Tripping
Thyroid Tripping
To further increase mathematical model accuracy, by accounting for bioaccumulation and lifetime effects, the following adjustments are made.
Most of the child stays home. The thyroid gland is surgically removed and flown for 562.315 million miles, or until a cancer diagnosis is confirmed.
Assume a SPHERICAL child
Let us assume that the child's intake altitude for food, water and air is a constant 1 meter above ground level.
This assumption will provide ease of data correlation, and mathematical model simplicity, while ignoring Futon bed height is about 1/3 that height and that children play on the floor.
This is the so called 'Spherical Chicken Assumption'.
Ahhh...I think I'm starting to 'get it'
I always get 'Schroedingers Cat' and the 'Spherical Chicken'
mixed up.
All of the circles Mark just
All of the circles Mark just ran around did nothing to explain why this is still an honest comparison. Once you step off the plane, the ionizing is over. Radioactive or not, ingesting these high weight particles never leave your body. Try not to miss the forest for the trees.
Leo, BRAWM Team is
Leo, BRAWM Team is intentionally trying to ignore the internal exposure. Better to ask your question somewhere else. Here is a link from the New York Times, this should help you understand.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01caldicott.html
That's one helluvan accusation, Anonymous.
...And IMO, borderline libelous to boot.
Healthy skepticism is one thing. Conspiracy paranoia, another. But in this crisis, BOTH are pretty understandable. But mealy-mouthed, obnoxious, total ingratitude and wanton character assassination is pretty damned pathetic... and enraging.
Rick Cromack.
Allen, Texas
Not "internal exposure"
That's soooo last month. The current term is "hot particle".
Thats sooo the day before.
Thats sooo the day before. The new term is "fuel flea".
OMG!!!
Will a flea collar help?!!!
Good Idea!
Good Idea!
This is what happens when
This is what happens when you tell public that the radiation from a flight on an airplane is more than what you are getting from Fukushima. Its completely ridiculous and absolutely deceptive. This site has lost much credibility.
Credibility
Hi Franky, you are leveling what I would consider a pretty serious accusation here. Could you point out exactly what you mean? What happens when we tell the public this?
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Mark, your explanations and
Mark, your explanations and comparisons are creating confusion and misinformation. Explain the difference between particulate radiation and electromagnet radiation. This is obviously what he does not understand.
Misinformation?
Franky, we have discussed alpha, beta, and gamma radiation at length on this forum, as well as other ionizing radiation such as cosmic rays. There are also many other resources available online that Leo can read, and I'm sure he has.
Please help me understand — what is the "misinformation" that you are still accusing me of creating?
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
It is misinformation to
It is misinformation to compare internal emitters with external emitters, ie, ingesting radioactive isotopes versus in-flight exposure or background radiation. It is like comparing warming oneself near a fire versus eating the fire. There is no safe level of radionuclide exposure.
Reminded me of a Caldicott
Reminded me of a Caldicott piece I read a while back where she took this Monbiot guy behind the wood shed over the external vs. internal issue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/apr/11/nuclear-apologists-rad...
I notice Mark didn't answer you here- an 'anonymous' did
I believe that is because you 'hit the nail on the head'. Perhaps not
perfectly, but effectively. Good on you.
Tell that to the
Tell that to the Potassium-40 which is all over your body, the Carbon-14 in your DNA and all the isotopes from the radium series you breath daily.
This particular line of thought is especially egregious
These new injections of radiation due to Fukushima have negatively altered
the environment and people will have to face that in terms of health.
No amount of attempting to 'press' the public to believe that this new
radiation 'is not harmful' will make it so.
Utilizing the pseudo-scientific argument that 'there exist non-harmful
forms of radiation' therefore, all radiation from Fukushima fallout will be
described as 'non-harmful radiation' expresses very well the lengths that
some (such as BRAWM/UC Berkeley Nuclear Engineering/NRC etc.), have gone to
in order to remove the conversation as far from reality as possible.
One may as well claim that given the human body is primarily composed of
water, that it is not possible for one to drown. What strong science!
A scientific mind recognizes that fire has 'both' benefits AND 'dangers'.
That is apparently not the 'scientific soup' which BRAWM 'swims in'.
That is how 'absent of scientific integrity' both the 'airplane analogy'
defended by BRAWM are, as well as this preceding argument, which is
mirrored frequently throughout this forum.
That is one of the reasons why BRAWM and the entire UC Berkeley Science
Departments are now tarnished over these false claims such as the 'airplane
analogy' and continue to lose credibility.
The BRAWM Team was not prepared nor experienced enough to detect the wide
range of Gamma, Beta and Alpha particles from Fukushima, yet they chose to
not let that stop them in terms of making 'broad and sweeping claims about
Public Health concerns'.
In addition, BRAWM factioned off the data from the whole, until it had
isolated 'one radioactive isotope' from 'one individual test sample' and
then made broad assertions negating the rest of the data.
That is not science. That is 'science made to order'.
One may as well count 'one' rose in a garden and make the claim 'that is
the only rose in the county'. Better yet, one may as well pluck one petal
from that rose and then state that no roses actually exist, only one petal.
This loss of credibility will continue until voices from within UC
Berkeley's Science Faculty (and elsewhere within the UCB Science
Departments) start speaking out against such acts. I encourage the public
to lobby UC Berkeley for such action.
If UC Berkeley wishes to show some good will in the face of these awful
acts, which are seemingly nothing if not detrimental to public health,
perhaps they will rename the UC Berkeley Nuclear Engineering Dept., the 'UC
Berkeley Nuclear Remediation Dept.' as THAT is the department the public
needed to hear from on this matter of Fukushima Radioactive Fallout.
The question of the original
The question of the original poster shows how misleading and confusing the comparison of flight radiation and particle radiation is. This is what happens when you try to ignore the obvious and come up with ridiculous explanations. Radioactive contamination is very much different than atmospheric radiation!
The question of the original
The question of the original poster shows that he hasn't even tried to read the FAQs:
"The dose from an X-ray or plane flight is different in that the source is outside the body, the radiation is distributed over all the body, and there are different amounts of different types of radiation compared to the isotopes we see. However, background gamma rays and cosmic rays are not blocked by our skin and still interact inside our body. The TEDE calculations attempt to normalize for all of these differences so that doses can be compared."
I'm afraid you are completely wrong.
"The TEDE calculations attempt to normalize ..."
Isn't the pivotal verb in that phrase 'attempt'?
I've read the FAQ's.
I've also read the 'Facts'.
The math 'may' be sound (although it may not be, as the application of the
raw data is questionable), but the premise is COMPLETELY bonkers.
Be patient. We'll get around to all of it...and try to remember- these are
kids in college who want to have the brightest future that they can- they
are not experienced Nuclear Engineers who have dealt first-hand with
Nuclear catastrophe.
Fukushima is an incredibly encompassing event. BRAWM is one tiny piece of a
'subset of data' within that 'overall event'. I think it's wise to keep
that in mind.
I'm not so sure about this.
"many people have experience with and know is not much of a radiological risk"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12074501
That article deals with
That article deals with cancer incidence among flight attendants, who may make hundreds of flights per year for decades. Flight crew actually receive a very large radiation dose — among the highest radiation dose of all occupations — so it is not surprising that there may be an increased cancer risk for them.
But we are comparing to a single round-trip plane flight, which is a small radiation dose.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Header should have read:
How Many Flights From San Francisco To Washington DC Would It Take To Contaminate The Drinking Water Which The Flight Crew And Passengers Drink?
Sorry about that-
atmospheric radiation does
atmospheric radiation does not contaminate water, nuclear fall does. you can't contaminate your water in a flight. the contamination is coming from nuclear reactors that are leaking radioactive contamination not airplane flights.
flight and contaminated spinach
The hosts know that a more correct comparison would be the amount of spinach you have to cover yourself in, in order to get the same radiation exposure. They know that 3pCi/L internal ingestion is the NRC 'so called' acceptable level which creates 3.5 cancers/1000 exposures. They also know that the same exposure externally does not create that level of cancers. They hide behind 'oh we're not health professionals' while trying to invalidate epidemilogist's mortality numbers and the 5000 peer reviewed summation of NYAS translation of the effects of Chernobyl. Egads, you'd think master students studying nuclear physics get their BS in PR, and get Phds in statistics and epidemilogy before the even get their Masters.
The problem with BS is that once discovered it cast doubt on everything the BS'er has said. One is left wondering why the UCB figures are so much lower than the State's, and why there's been no independent analysis of their figures and collection sites, and why the promised plutonium test hasn't showed up.
It is unfortunate that UCB's credibility has been so compromised. But then these are the same tired arguments we've gotten from the industry from the start. 'Oh, it's not our radioactive leaks causing all the cancers, how do you know you got it from us?'
Ultimately every time anyone post something that shows the industry in a poor light, they immediately go about trying to invalidate it even before they've read the article themselves.
Excellent post.
There are very good reasons that the Plutonium (or any other alpha particle
detection) tests have not shown up. Those reasons relate to credibility.
I intend to explore those issues.
Whoever you are, I hope you will continue posting reasonable thoughts on the
matter. There has been far too little of that.
P*E*A*C*E*