Maybe this will quiet some of the fear mongering or maybe not
I read this article this morning and it actually makes sense. We see declines here on UC Berkeley's site, yet many still push these crazy plume maps that have no real merit.
http://radiationfears.com/atmosphere/radiation-how-bad-is-it/
I think at the end of the
I think at the end of the day we all agree here. No one knows actual effects of these different radioactive particles on the body because as the article in question reads, it's still a phenomenon and each of us will react different to low levels of radiation.
Everyone here admits that the government has way too much control and I believe there is little we can do at this point. 1 person amongst a crowd of 100 can make some noise, but 1,000 people amongst a crowd of 350 million will be silenced. That's unfortunately the nature of the beast. Very few are intelligent enough to actually research this type of subject and those that are have little time to actually take action. Even 5 years ago this would have had a different effect on society because people had more time and money to make themselves heard, but now everyone fighting to survive financially, let alone physically. Our job shouldn't be to worry about our health, that should be the job of the government to whom we pay 35%-40%+ taxes to each year. America is fast becoming a country where the people have no control. The love of money is the root of all evil!
Important to continue talking about the what ifs!
Now that Tepco is finally telling us their "censored" findings
we should be outraged that we are still being denied the
truth of the situation. The value of these discussions is to
try to find out what is happening on a day to day basis and to project out "worst case" scenarios from the facts on the ground. Fear and anger are great motivators
when they do no overwhelm. If "we" cannot begin to tell the
truth about this catastrophe and have it sink in, disturb and
call us to action then Houston, we have a problem that mirrors
the ongoing decay of our culture. Is there a quiet desperation
that is not of denial but of resigned hopelessness going on or
is there a schizoid avoidance of the subject as surreal and "not
there?" or is there a refusal to accept the findings as it "ruins"
the life we have known? maybe all of the above. I am aware that there are
also a lot of us out there who are trying in our own ways to live as best as
we can. The authorities do not want us to know. Consumption is 70% of the
economy. Why would they want us to stay indoors and not out there consuming.
or perhaps they fear that if people really knew the situation they would go
out and max the credit cards and live it up as the last of the good times.
Coming to a theatre close to you soon. Corian explosions at the Reactors.
Not inevitable but a likely outcome with those blobs on the containment floor.
Yes it may get worse in terms of fall out coming our way.
ANGER needs to be focused
ANGER needs to be focused and channeled, not dispersed and calmed. EMOTION, ORGANIZATION, FOCUS, INTENT ---- these together ACCOMPLISH change in a society designed in every way to resist change and disperse its factors.
Japan, Germany, France,
Japan, Germany, France, India and Italy have all had large protests with 10-100 thousand people each.
Where is the outrage in the US? Have there been any demonstrations on Washington?
"Corian explosions at the
"Corian explosions at the Reactors."
I agree Anon.
Those cores on the floor will most certianly cause their countertops to explode, inundating the west cost with moldy old food particles.
It will be hell on Earth. Think of the DuPont stock prices!!!
I want to believe this is ending as much as the next guy...
I want to believe this is ending as much as the next guy -- believe me, not eating spinach and other fresh vegetables, and worrying about the air and water quality is not what I want to do. But -- unfortunately for you others in this country like you who always say "look the other way" -- I am an extremely informed person and work as a historian. Now that I've made it to age fifty, my mind is full of the lies and deceit that have occurred throughout history, and especially the incredible lack of concern for basic human life shown by governments throughout the world during the past century while we've been supposedly especially "civilized".
You can tell your "fear mongering" claims to the good people who trusted their employers at the Santa Susanna Field Laboratory in the 1960s, and some of the neighbors in that area, who are now either long dead or dying of cancers from that government and industry controlled complex. And see if you can find it listed under lists of nuclear accidents -- you won't. You will, however, find in its history a number of attempts by your government to make the huge private corporations that worked there not not liable for the effects of the horrific radioactive and toxic releases they caused, while the radioactive isotopes, toxins and carcinogens were referred to as "not a threat."
THAT is a lie and a "government conspiracy".
common sense
I think anyone with a bit of common sense and some knowledge of history can't help but share your viewpoint....
Fear fear fear fear fear,
Fear fear fear fear fear, Alex Jones, fear fear, Helen Caldicott, fear fear fear, Chris Busby.
Fear fear, Xenon gas, fear fear fear fear, bioaccumulation.
Fear fear fear, no end in sight, fear fear must run away to South America.
This is what it's like listening to the lot of you. Totally ignorant of the science and without understanding of the scale of the disaster in the US. People in Japan should be this worried. If you are not in Japan, where contamination will be significant, you have almost no chance of developing cancer any more than if you were to have a car fall on your head. The risk has been quantified and it is near zero. If you wish to believe the llrc crowd, go right ahead but it still won't likely change anything.
There is no safe place to escape the radiation except another planet. It's everywhere at this point and the CTBTO backs this up.
What will happen to the cores at Fk-1? The same things that happened to TMI and Chernobyl. They will burn themselves out and cool. Japan needs to realize that they can't stop what has happened and the only thing they can do it to bury it and try to clean up.
For the rest of us, here's some perspective:
* Nuclear testing, on average deposited 2500 Bq/m2 of Cesium over the whole US from 1945 to 1963. Fukushima has accumulated less than 100 Bq/m2 in the most fallout laden areas of Alaska and the PNW.
* Chernobyl deposited 1000-4000 Bq/m2 all over Europe. Some food is above the limit, some cancers increased, but did it kill all of Europe? No, and neither did Nuclear testing and certainly not Fukushima.
* Chernobyl deposited roughly twice as much Cesium over the continental US as has Fukushima. The odds are what is coming out of Japan is not likely to increase significantly. It would take years for it to reach Chernobyl levels at the current rate.
* The cores are already melted down. Further dramatic releases are not likely. Localized exposures do not have a limit, however.
* The Farallon nuclear waste dump had polluted the ocean around the bay area with far more Plutonium, Uranium, Cesium, Strontium and other nuclides for the past 50 years more than Fukushima will do. No one seemed to mind swimming in, eating fish from or otherwise ignoring this risk, but somehow Fukushima is much worse (hint: nuclide concentrations from Farallon NWD are much higher than what will arrive as dilluted waste from Japan).
* If you are all so concerned about the negative effects of nuclear power, why aren't you organizing to demonstrate on Washington to make your voices heard? Sitting at your computer and posting to a forum will get you nowhere. It's all talk, no action.
Please, stop posting fear-laden crap. Get some perspective and make your voices heard.
Reply to Fear...Fear...Fear...
Huh ?
Why should we expect or ask Gunderson to explain fallout patterns ? Many of your statements are ridiculous.
I would not go see a dentist if I had a broken leg. Gunderson is a nuclear safety engineer thus his reports focus on the technical details of the Fukushima plant. Precise, accurate, scientific calculations, based on data from TEPCO not a conspiracy theory. Be thankful he is around.
Further more I would hardly put Busby or Caldicott in the same category as the hot head propaganda spinner Alex Jones. A must read for you as a start is Busby's CV. Read and learn.
Cheers !
BTW if you feel so "safe" maybe you should buy a six pack of the Asahi Beer coming out of Fukushima Prefecture. And invite Anne Coulter for spa therapy in the radioactive waters at Fukushima.
I'm loving the way one
I'm loving the way one catastrophe justifies and validates another.
"There is no safe place to escape the radiation except another planet."
So you say. Within that broad stroke there are subtleties worth pursuing.
I am feeling much more at ease OUT of the Northern Hemisphere. You haven't got the guts to leave and that is YOUR prerogative.
I don't think it takes guts
I don't think it takes guts to leave, quite the opposite.
Response r.e. fear
Are you so sure there is no risk from fallout in Northern Hemisphere? Have you read about Petkau effect? A number of medical researchers have mentioned and conducted research on prolonged exposure to tiny amounts of radiation. That is what we appear to be getting....there is exposed and melting fuel continuously releasing rads and the wind is blowing this way. Let's hear from informed healthcare pratitioners.
I'm tired of the pendulum being pulled way to one side
The poster didn't say "no risk from fallout in Northern Hemisphere". They said "almost no chance of developing cancer". There are risks involved in
everything we do. Getting out of bed in the morning poses a risk. NOT
getting out of the bed in the morning poses a risk. The real questions are
how much risk does this incident pose and what if anything we should do
about it?
It would be great if we could keep the discussion away from the extremes.
The extreme is the playground of fools.....
"The extreme is the
"The extreme is the playground of fools....."
Oh, I highly disagree. The extreme as you call it is the way of those impassioned with L-I-F-E.
Consider the fact of having been fluoridated for who knows how many years and your feeble complacency becomes more fathomable.
Leave it be.
Leave it be.
Helthcare professionals are
Helthcare professionals are not Health Physicists. Doctors don't study radiation risk and stick to an axiom of do no harm, e.g. don't get any radiation if you can avoid it. The funny thing is, doctors prescribe radiation on doses that have a much more profound effect on cancer than distant nuclea accidets: medical imaging - CT scans, PET scans, Xray imaging, Flouroscopy, etc.
On average these account for 1/2 of your yearly exposure, 300 mRem, and it's increasing. There have now been studies that conclude that CT scans are causing excess cancers, not to mention the possibility of inadvertant overdose as had been reported.
Why do we subject ourselves? Because we feel comforted in knowing that there is no disease, but in reality are causing more disease with more testing.
So, I'm not so sure that Doctors have the clearest picture on avoiding radiation. A Health Physicist should be better equipped to determine risk.
And, as BRAWM has stated, after discussing the matter with HPs at UCB that the risk is minimal.
Knowledge is power
Drchivers stated so eloquently.
"Too much focus on academics and not enough on action in our world"
That's a pretty bold statement. The work we do informs policy-makers and we work tirelessly to ensure the people in charge have as close to the truth as they can get it. Without an independent academic sector, all information would come from special interests. We can choose to live our lives emotionally with a picket sign in our hands yelling at the front step of a big corporation, which gets us no where, or we can work in the lab to find the real truths, publish our findings, and inform the public and allow the regulations to integrate this work. We, as scientists, choose the latter. This is action, in my opinion, that is very effective.
However, all decisions at the governmental levels are risk/benefit calculations. We develop the risk/consequence models so that these decisions are properly contextualized, but unfortunately, we have some officials in government that place corporate benefit over public risk.
If you want to see this in action, see Prof. Peterson's testimony in the Hearing on Nuclear Power Plant Safety Panel on “Seismic and secondary seismic risks near nuclear power plants and spent fuel rod storage facilities in California."
My words...
If u compare three mile island to Fukushima You are ignorant .would u put arnie gunderson in your fear fear statement too???
It may be "very effective."
It may be "very effective." Everything is relative. The point is that that efficacy did nothing over a period of 40 years to get Fukushima's backup generators elevated away from the sea. Most of us here have the utmost respect for BRAWM and think especially highly of Dr. Chivers. But any way you slice it, Fukushima is represents a FAILING of the entire nuclear industry.
What I would like to see
What I would like to see is for Arnie Gunderson to give a *complete*
perspective on the situation. The following are honest questions. I'm not
looking for a "don't worry, be happy" statement from him. I'm not looking
for him to comfort us or minimize the situation. And I'm certainly not
looking for him to give comfort to the nuclear power industry so they are
not held responsible for this type of disaster or even the smaller ones.
And I'm not "pro nuclear" or "anti Gunderson". So, don't bother going down
that road. I don't follow Gunderson. So, I'm asking these questions to
see how balanced his presentations are.
1. Has he discussed the declining fallout levels in the US? Or has that
subject been dropped? If dropped, was there closure on that subject? Is
he now just focusing on the existing US contamination? Or has he dropped
the US discussion entirely to focus only on the situation in Japan?
2. Has he ever given a complete comparison between the fallout of this
crisis, Chernobyl, TMI and all the nuclear weapons tests?
3. Has he ever given a real risk comparison between "internal" exposure
(which exposes/risks only the cells where the radiation has lodged in the
body) to "external" large area/whole body exposure (which exposes/risks
entire organs or your entire body/*every cell*)? I know he's had guests
that said internal was worse. But, did he or any of his guests discuss
the risks of external exposure at all? Or were those risks ignored or
dismissed?
4. Has he ever quantified the amount of external/internal radiation we
were absorbing, inhaling and ingesting every day *before* Fukushima to
put the current risk into perspective?
5. Has he ever given an single bit of positive news?
It seems to me that any honest pundit (on either side of the issue)
would at least touch on all the data points. And *then* draw conclusions
based on their analysis of those points. If they don't, they clearly have
an agenda. And we really need to be careful about basing our own decisions
on what those pundits are telling us.
The BRAWM team has been accused of not looking at the external/internal
exposure differences or at least not looking at them correctly. But, at
least they've posted their justification for comparing the two types of
exposures. Whether you agree with them or not, they have taken it into
consideration and put it out there for honest discussion. This is what
I would expect of any pundit who wants to really cover the facts.
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2044#tede
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/1897
Yes, he has had positive
Yes, he has had positive news. I believe it was two or more weeks ago he described units 1 and 3 as "out of the woods" at the same time that he said 2 was of great concern. That was a snapshot of what he believed at the time of that particular video.
Why should there be closure on fallout levels in the US and why would he be held responsible for putting this issue to bed? Is this over? Is there a reason for scientists to believe that this is winding down, or is that simply a wish that the public would stop paying attention?
Didn't say he was responsible for closure
Please read what I asked. I asked "If dropped, was there closure on that subject?". I'm NOT saying he has done this, but many pundits drop a subject with no closure when ithe subject t no longer serves their
purpose. So, I was simply trying to determine if he has done that.
The testimony drchiver spoke of dr make live link please
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/files/Peterson_Testimony_4_2011.pdf
see Prof. Peterson's testimony in the Hearing on Nuclear Power Plant Safety Panel on “Seismic and secondary seismic risks near nuclear power plants and spent fuel rod storage facilities in California."
I'm sorry, are you referring
I'm sorry, are you referring to my post?
I can't tell because the word "u" is not part of the English language.
Yes I was is arnie gunderson
Yes I was is arnie gunderson in your fear mongering category ?
Mr. Gundersen is a very
Mr. Gundersen is a very knowledgable person, and portrays his views without drama or pretense. However, his company, Fairewinds, makes its living from giving expert testimony and support to anti-nuclear efforts. While I have no
public opinion of the merit of his direction of his work, I would hardly call him an unbiased source.
As another poster said above, has he ever given any good news with relation to the declining levels of radiation, or contrasted the accident against Chernobyl by quantitative analysis?
It seems that Mr. Gundersen offers his opinion based on reading 50% Tepco data and 50% conspiracy sites. Being on RT doesn't help his image in any way.
Having his kind of knowledge
Having his kind of knowledge and experience, it must be *hard* to say the very least to be anything but "anti-nuclear."
This is extremely dangerous technology that never would have spread as it did were it not for its role in the military complex.
Trust me -- we ARE
Trust me -- we ARE organizing, I'm sure much to the dismay of "The Earth is Flat"ers such as yourself.
I'll believe it when I see
I'll believe it when I see it.
Questions I have 1.There's
Questions I have 1.There's tons of fuel melting or melted down where's it going air and water correct.
2.tepcos estimated release analysis is sure to be adjusted in future .u would agree it's a fluid situation.
This isn't fear mongering it's just scientific inquiry the lack of science ie true release data the computer programs the us government has to show plumes and contamination forecasts not being shared is what scares me.they have programs but do not share.
I agree, but I don't think
I agree, but I don't think anyone really knows what can and will happen. All that can be done is monitor the situation. We have to pray that Berkeley continues to do this for us as it's certainly helping as a determining factor. Seeing maps that show our entire country inundated with radiation seems a bit far fetched after reading what we have on this site. It can certainly get worse than it is, but we have to be thankful that we are seeing declines overall. The ocean is a whole different subject, but we have some time before that really becomes a problem. That's if you don't eat sushi now :).
Issue 82
Yes but the gov has these cool programs that can model accurate predictions if u read issue 82 report on severe accidents in spent fuel pools there's actually lots of programs crac2,sfuel And or origen2 a burn up calculator Pg84. that they used to predict contamination if a spent pool caught fire and guess what this computer program nailed it as far as I can tell it was accurate in it's prediction .check page 66 THIS Is why USA made a 50 mile evacuation around Fukushima .
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/purl.cover.jsp;jsessionid=2434B1E82554FCA2D12...
zenon gas as a tranquilizer
the radioactive release from Fukushima has no
end in sight. Evem though the levels are "low"
there is still a daily bio-accumulation going on.
i have read of no solution of what to do with
the melting cores. It can only get worse. Fear
grounded in facts is always better than fearlessness
out of ignorance or denial. It is a betrayal beyond
words to have the monitoring stopped. I sure
hope the Brawm team is insulated politically from
the Dept of Energy, EPA ETC.. otherwise they to
will go silent as well.
I'm not so sure it's denial,
I'm not so sure it's denial, but I will say for those sitting and waiting for their bodies to feel the effects, they'll be the first ones. We need to practice eating and drinking things that have been filtered or are decreased levels, all while focusing on our bodies health, i.e. Vit B,C,D,E along with specific herbs and plants that can help stay healthy. We can't stop Fukushima, but we can certainly be mindful. The bio accumulation issues are rampant with more than just radiation. We are all subject to poisons in our food chain outside the scope of radiation. How about all the pesticides we eat and drink or the antibiotics in all the water. We will always be poisoned, but it's the process of understanding how to avoid the poison which is most important.
Unless you move to the southern hemisphere, it's impossible to avoid any of this radiation, that's just a fact. And at least we have the BRAWN team to help us in the detection process. No one here is in denial, they just want facts.
Read
Read issue 82 and u will get a sense of the scope of this tragedy.