Why does CPM for different isotopes....
Why does CPM for different isotopes equate to different dosages of radiation? That is, for the same CPM, it equates to different microSeiverts, depending on which isotope?
Why does CPM for different isotopes equate to different dosages of radiation? That is, for the same CPM, it equates to different microSeiverts, depending on which isotope?
The Banana Analogy
Dr. Chivers,
please relate these topics to dietary potassium which is made up of 98.8% stable isotopes and the remaining 0.012% which is radioactive potassium (K-40)?
What are the relative health impacts from eating bananas to ingesting other Beta/Gamma emitters, with shorter halflives and higher energies?
'The Banana Analogy' is often used. Perhaps we should delve into the matter more closely.
Thank you!
"And we would have gotten away with it too..."
"And we would have gotten away with it too...if it weren't for those meddling kids..." -Scooby Doo
http://www.playlist.com/searchbeta/tracks#the%20funeral%20band%20of%20ho...
How many Airplane Rides?
BRAWM Team,
How much reduction in Internal Radiation bombardment could be achieved by a 90% reduction in human metabolic K-40?
How about for a 99% reduction?
How would that compare to Pre/Post-Fukushima effective lifetime dosage?
How many trans-continental airline trips would that remove from our itinerary?
What kind of cancer rate reduction could be achieved by the effective mechanical removal of K-40 as a player in our global diet?
Such wonderful questions
I hope they receive answers
thanks to both of you!
I am just trying to get a feel for some of this, and my physics is very very very weak. Probablity Theory and Stochastic Processes I have an understanding of on some level.
I like both descriptions, since learning comes in layers. I have to think on this some more, but...a few simplistic questions, and please forgive me if I don't get the vacabulary quite right...
Is this decay energy that each isotope has, directly correlated to decay rate (half-life), or can, say, slowly decaying isotopes give off either lower or higher energy?
If the CPM's, to some degree, depend on the probability that the gamma-ray will interact, does that mean that if radiation from different isotopes comes in, having the same "density" in the air (informal density from a completely intuitive but imprecise viewpoint and lacking better vocabulary here), then different CPM's could result because different energies would give different probabilites of interacting?
In the above, I'm thinking of the beta count. Now that you mentioned it, I think I did notice that inverse count and energy relationship for the gammas - will have to go back and look.
**It's this effect on living tissue that is studied and a corresponding dose is ascribed to how much radiation is received by a given amount of living matter by a given amount of radiation. This is measured in RADs, or Grays or, ...... When approximating for human doses the effect is taken into account and that leads to another metric: Rems or Sieverts***
Am I being too literal, or are there distinctions made between the amount of radiation a person receives and the measurement of effect? It almost seems like the first and the last measurements are almost the same thing?
Strictly speaking, RADs and
Strictly speaking, RADs and Grays are for measuring absorbtion by any kind of matter. Typically only a percentage of emissions will interact with a target as the emissions are omnidirectional and sometimes pass through an object completely as Dr. Chivers has stated.
REMs and Sieverts deal more specifically with absorption by living tissue. But different tissues yield different effects from the same type of radiation. The dose conversion factors try to take these differences into account.
Another comment: GM tubes (Geiger counters) only can detect a range of energies, and are poor at determining alpha emissions because they interact weakly. Another type of detector, called a scintillation counter is more effective. It usually uses some medium that flouresces/changes impedance when bombarded by radiation. A CCD or PMT device optically, or electronically as in the HPGe device, records the interaction as well as the level of energy imparted. This data can then be used through statistics software to determine the types of nuclides by their energy levels. This is only for Gamma radiation as Alpha has too little energy to differentiate easily (too much background interference) and Beta is a similar case, but also can be confused with other electrical interference.
the units...
So, these units, in essence, change, depending on what is being emitted and what the target is?
BUT, to keep some sort of consistency, the unit definitions are kept the same, but when working with each different isotope there is some sort of a numerical conversion factor that is used?
I might have a follow-up question relating to the last paragraph, but have to first find out how my thinking is from my more concrete question below.
Thank you :-)
a more concrete question
IF the CPM can vary with particle (can it?), does that not make the total beta counts a very imprecise and rough estimate, since different particles might be hitting at different rates because of those different probabilities?
again, that might not be right, but very curious now if it's true or what I'm misunderstanding if not.
Each isotope has a different
Each isotope has a different decay energy. This is measured in Electron Volts (eV). The higher the number of Electron Volts, the more ionizing the radiation is. Some isotopes have emissions measures in 1000s of Electron Volts (KeV), while others are measured in millions of Electron Volts (MeV). Each Electron Volt is a very small amount of energy, but it imparts it's effect on living cells in a significant way, potentially knocking electrons outbid atoms such that they ionize and potentially oxidize living tissue.
It's this effect on living tissue that is studied and a corresponding dose is ascribed to how much radiation is received by a given amount of living matter by a given amount of radiation. This is measured in RADs, or Grays or, while emissions are measured in Curies or Becquerels. When approximating for human doses the effect is taken into account and that leads to another metric: Rems or Sieverts.
So, based on how much energy is given off by a radioactive substance, measured in Curies or Becquerels, a specific Geiger counter tube will have a known output. That output is calibrated to a dose and a check source so that the meter on the counter can register in REMs or Sieverts.
HTH
Actually...
"The higher the number of Electron Volts, the more ionizing the radiation is" --> This is not so clear, at least the way you say it. Here is what I would say:
CPM is counts per minute within a certain medium. If this is a Geiger-Mueller counter, this medium is a noble low-pressure gas such as argon. For a certain decay energy, there is a probability that gamma-ray will interact and ionize the gas which will produce a "count". This probability relates to the type of gas, pressure, and energy of the gamma-ray.
We normally refer to these gamma-ray energies in keV or MeV (thousands or millions of eV, respectively). For scale, visible light is 2-3 eV, UV light is 3eV-1keV, X-rays are 1keV - 100keV, and gamma-rays are normally greater than 100keV. The decay energies we are normally dealing with are 50keV to 3MeV. There are a number of ways these gamma-rays can interact within the gas but the dominant modes are Compton (incoherent) scattering and photo-electric absorption. In general, and this is counter-intuitive, the LOWER the energy of the gamma-ray, the greater the probability of interaction and thus the CPM increases. This is because photoelectric absorption begins to become dominant at lower energies and this mode of interaction has increasing probability with lower energies. This physics of this is there is a kind of "resonance" occurring between the photon (an electromagnetic wave) and the atomic electrons (particle-waves). The binding energies of inner shell electrons are in the 10's of keV and thus as the photon starts to approach these energies (< 200keV), the energy "couples" more efficiently to these electrons making it easier to ionize the atom. In fact, in photoelectric effect, the highest bound shells have the greatest probability for ionization due to this effect as well as these electrons coupling more efficiently to the recoil atom,...,kind of like it is easier to "push off" the rest of the atom as it is ejected.
So, what does this mean for dose? Well, there has to be a conversion done between the number of counts seen in the GM Counter to what would be seen if you had normal tissue there instead. There are some factors that go into this and the calculation is quite complicated. In general, the density of the tissue is ~1000 times higher than gas and the average Z (number of protons and electrons per atom) is about a factor of 2.2 less. The interaction probability will scale linearly with electron density (i.e. differences of density and Z) at higher energies where Compton scattering is dominant (> ~400keV). At lower energies (<200keV), the interaction probability is higher with higher the atomic Z of the target (~Z^3.5) and will remain linear with density. Higher Z of an atom means higher binding energies of inner shell electrons. Back of the envelope calculation: At low energies Z-tissue is a factor of 2.2 less than Z-argon and density is 1000 times higher for tissue than argon gas. So the interaction rate difference should be something like 1000/(2.2^3.5) = 63. Also, at low energies, you can assume that the energy absorbed per interaction is close to the energy of the gamma-ray. For higher energies, the energy absorbed per gamma-ray is usually much less since the interaction is dominated by scattering where only partial absorption occurs at the interaction site and a second photon usually escapes. This is why x-rays can give you a lot of dose because the incident energy per photon is something like 50-100 keV where photo-electric dominates. Higher energies are not normally used in diagnostic x-rays because the scatter and lack of interaction probability reduces contrast of the images and therefore less information to the physician. In general, any x-ray is a dose-information trade-off...higher doses give higher diagnostic information.
OK, so there is a lot here. What to remember:
1) Lower energy is HIGHER CPM. You should be able to see this in the EPA Rad-Net data where lower window numbers are lower energies and therefore higher CPM. (You may also need to scale with window size for this data)
2) CPM in a detector for a given energy needs to be related to the CPM in tissue which should scale linearly with density and depending on the energy of the gamma-ray, will be linear with Z or a functional (Z^3.5) for high and low energies, respectively.
3) Dose is related to not just the CPM (interaction rate) but also to the energy absorbed per interaction. At low energies (<200keV), this can be approximated by just using the photon energy. At higher gamma-ray energies (>400keV) one needs to scale this down by as much as 1/2 of the gamma-ray energy due to scattering becoming the dominant mode of interaction. A combination of both are always occurring so one must always be wary of thumb rules that assume one mode or another unless we are talking about very high or very low energies.
I'm not sure this helps, but maybe this gives people a slight idea of the complexity of these types of calculations and when they read someones post that has not clearly done this type of calculation and interprets data to dose, they may be skeptical of their methods.
Thanks Dr. Chivers. I knew
Thanks Dr. Chivers. I knew my explanation was very simplistic and probably had a few high-school assumptions.