For Dr. Chivers, one Berkeley parent to another
Hi there-
I am so grateful for your input, you must be so proud of your students, they have been truly amazing. You have mentioned that you are a parent and weeks ago you said you were not changing your children's lifestyle in any way as a response to the radiation here in Berkeley. Here we are almost 6 weeks later and I wanted to check in and see if you still feel this way. I also live in Berkeley and nobody I know is remotely concerned and they all tease me about my worrying. We were at a party last night and my kids wanted to eat the local strawberries like all of the other kids. I let them but inside I was freaking out a bit. This is how it's been...they eat ice cream, I smile and inside I'm panicked. The food here in Berkeley, as you know, is some of the best food in the world and I do not want to make my kids nuts! This forum has gotten tough because there are so many posters who are absolutely freaking out and I am trying to keep my perspective. I have been trying to only read the BRAWN team responses since I believe in you all and I do want the information.
So, are you letting your kids drink milk, eat local produce etc.? I hope I am not being too personal, but since we live in the same place it would definitely help me to know what you are doing regarding your kids. Any other BRAWN member feel free to chime in. I just know that most of you are students and don't have kids yet. I have already driven my kids crazy, and my concern has become a family joke (I joke about it too) I just need to not let the alarmist posts get to me, because they do get to me!
Any insight would be appreciated! Thanks for your time!
I understand your anxiety
I live in SF with a small child. The last thing we want to do is to make her neurotic about food, but that said we are not giving her post-accident N. American dairy products, berries, leafy greens, mushrooms etc. When she's at school or friends' houses we just grin and bear it.
I trust and appreciate the BRAWM team, but I'm not sure I trust the health risk model they are using. See this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/apr/20/chernobyl-radiation-...
I certainly hope Dr Chivers' risk estimates ARE correct, but after reading both sides of the issue, I'm not convinced anyone really knows when it comes to low-level radiation exposure. I have a propensity to distrust science that has from its inception been more or less controlled by the military and then very powerful corporate interests. I also am suspicious of scientific claims coming from activists...so...it's a difficult position for me and many others.
Yes
I agree with that assessment .someone had stated democracy and nuclear energy don't mix well and unfortunately this crisis only reinforces this .
my main question
Is why doesn't the IAEA(or any agency for that matter) have any boots on the ground at the fukushima plant if there the watchdog group? then i think of governments that are undemocratic and the fact nuclear accidents may happen there and information will be suppressed even more than this current crisis. think would china tell there population let alone the world of risks if they had a meltdown .that's why I say no to nuclear it's to much a gamble for our country let alone a country like Pakistan(3 plants built by china more soon) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHASNUPP-1
U can build plants anywhere but will that country be able to contain a problem ?
Democracy= not perfect but
Democracy= not perfect but the best choice we've got= lesser of all evils
Democrats/Republicans= who you vote for= lesser of two evils
Nuclear power= said to be the best choice we've got(I disagree)=lesser of all evils?????
Are you seeing a pattern here?
I'm not a scientist, but I
I'm not a scientist, but I worked in the Radiological controls business for years. Trying to effectively control and minimize the amount of rediation exposure the workers received. My sister called me regarding my nephew and neice, it almost (ok did) bring a tear to my eye. Her and the kids are in LA. What brought a tear to my eye was her BELIEF that there was a significant problem. If you are truly concerned, nothing I can say will change that, but look at the PEER REVIEWED STUDIES that try to make sense of radiation dose vs. cancer incidence. http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=030909156X I don't ask my plumber to look at my houses electricl system and I don't look to a sociologist to look at my ventilation system. You have to apply critical thinking and judgement like never before. I simply ask you to reserve your consideration to PEER REVIEWED studies. There are alot of snake oil salesman and charaltons out there.;
What do you think about this
What do you think about this PEER REVIEWED STUDY?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdanov_Affair
"There are alot of snake oil salesman and charaltons out there."
I agree with you on this point, though we may differ on the identity of the frauds.
critical thinking
I certainly agree that critical thinking is always important. I would remind you though that looking at the history of science shows that many scientists whose theories proved to be correct were dissident scientists. Their articles would not have been accepted under modern peer review.
Also I challenge you to provide a credible peer reviewed study SHOWING that long-term low-level exposure to the specific radionuclides produced by this accident are NOT harmful. I would love to read that study!
Radiation hormesis is still
Radiation hormesis is still not a universally accepted theory, especially when it comes to regulatory committees. However, there have been some indications that there is some truth that our bodies have developed an evolutionary response to low level radiation. Internal and external exposure to natural radioactive particles are a fact of life and if there is anything we have learned from the study of the human body is that biological processes are very nonlinear and evolution has produced engenius mechanisms to repair cell damage. Here is a journal article which also references 4 other articles on the subject (refs 21-24).
The jury is still out, but there are respected scientists that are publishing findings in peer reviewed journals.
http://www.jpands.org/vol9no1/chen.pdf
Was Einstein peer reviewed?
Was Einstein peer reviewed? Was he wrong? What was the mainstream science view of Einstein? Was he wrong?
Q:Are peer reviewed studies ever wrong?
A: Yes at least 5% of the time
He was not wrong. He
He was not wrong. He published his papers and was thoroughly peer-reviewed and his arguments were mathematically solid. He questioned basic assumptions in which Newtonian physics were based on. When he published, he essentially found a way to solve a region of physics where experimental observations that did not agree with Newtonian assumptions. What came out of his theory were predictions, not yet observed, that went against conventional thinking. Over time, experimental physics caught up with his theory. This is not the normal mode of science, however, most of the time experimental physics leads and theory follows.
article
Thanks, Dr Chivers. I look fwd to reading this article later.
Your concern is
Your concern is understandable as we all want to protect our kids from risks and allow them to grow up healthy and strong. My wife and I have not changed our routine and we continue to eat local produce from our local farmer's market. I normally tell people that stress and anxiety will have a greater effect on your health than this small amount of exposure.
Are You On the East Cost Dr. Chivers?
It is Sunday, April 24th at 11:19 p.m. in California.
I see your post posted 3 minutes ago says Monday, April 25th at
2:16. It is Monday if you are in the Eastern Time Zone. Are you
coming back to California any time soon? I noticed this about a
post of yours two weeks ago as well and commented on it at that time.
With regard to the date and
With regard to the date and time stamp you see for comments on this forum, I believe that is Greenwich Mean Time, not the local time.
Are you in the east coast?
Are you in the east coast? Your comment is dated the 25th too.
testing the time of my
testing the time of my comment.
okay, I posted a comment at
okay, I posted a comment at 3:42 pm California time today 3/25 which posted as 22 pm something. So it posts differently.
Radiation Time Warp
I guess the radiation is causing a time warp. I'm in San Jose, Calif.
It's 8:32am here. But, I bet my post will show up as 3:32pm!!!
dairy
Thank you so much Dr. Chivers for responding. Are you letting your kids drink milk? That's the one that concerns me the most. I read reports about how high the levels were in Hawaii and Arizona, but your measurements for milk were higher! My kids keep wanting grass fed burgers (they loved them before all of this happened) and milk. I want to let go of this stress and anxiety because I know it's not good. I also want my kids to get the protein they need. Thank you for being compassionate and having seemingly endless patience with all of us! It is certainly not your job to hold our hands through this, yet you have been extremely willing to do just that and I think I probably speak for many parents who post, we thank you so, so much.
Yes. We continue to drink
Yes. We continue to drink milk as before.
A moment, please...
I am sorry, but I am beginning to question the legitimacy of this site after these comments. When a scientist allows his children to drink milk - and consume food from a farmers market - that he knows may contain radioactive isotopes, then he is either irresponsible or serving as a shill for a system of disinformation.
It is time for everyone here to look for proof in your communities and our country that the children of academia and the wealthy and powerful are indeed "sticking to their normal routines". THIS IS THE ONLY WAY we will know FOR SURE what the truth about conditions out there are. Where are Nancy Pelosi's grandchildren? John Boehner's? Barbara Boxer's? Dianne Feinstein's? Barack Obama's children? JPL? CalTech?
Radiation levels -- and the numbers of dangerous isotopes, toxins and carcinogens -- are rising according to some very legitimate sources, including independent testers on the ground in the Pacific Northwest as well as the Swedish government and NILU. Just this past weekend on Easter Sunday there was another dangerous spike. Bits and pieces have come out of clandestine meetings of experts within the nuclear industry in this country that have suggested that the fallout from Fukushima is MUCH worse than we are being told. Parents here and in other countries not only NEED to be told the full picture of what is in the air, water and food now and in the future, but we have have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to know.
The U.S. Government clearly lied about the air quality after 9/11, with the help of government scientific agencies such as the EPA -- that is documented in courts now. And they CERTAINLY lied about the leaks and meltdowns at the Boeing/Rocketdyne Santa Susanna Field Laboratory which has killed many but was kept out of the media for years (Wikipedia it) -- also in courts now, after fifty years of contamination.
So, for goodness sake, make your own decisions on what you should know for your family's sake.
- John
Preposterous. That is
Preposterous. That is putting it lightly. Conspiracies have no place on this website and reasonable people who read this forum regularly know the difference between posts that are from an extreme element bent on distrust and those who are truly adding to state of affairs by providing constructive and reasonable feedback. Please, if you distrust this site, the people who created it, and the data we put out freely,...,please feel free to expend your time and energy to take your own data and post it for all to see. It is a sad state of affairs that trolls and fear mongers can use a perfectly honest forum for public education and information to attempt to place their opinions over others by making preposterous claims. I rarely respond to such blather, but sometimes I feel leaving trolls unchecked produces an air of legitimacy to their claims. Thank you to everybody who provides honest feedback that continues to make us better.
For the record: there are natural radioactive isotopes in milk and vegetables (K40, radon daughters, etc) that provide a level of internal dose that dwarf what we are seeing from Fukushima. My children will continue to reap the benefits of eating vegetables and I will not instill a fear of eating certain foods because that could hurt their health in the long term.
Natural Radioactivity in Food
ref: Handbook of Radiation Measurement and Protection, Brodsky, A. CRC Press 1978 and Environmental Radioactivity from Natural, Industrial and Military Sources, Eisenbud, M and Gesell T. Academic Press, Inc. 19
Highest reading for Spinach from our laboratory: 67.6 pCi/kg
Good luck competing with K40 exposure...which is continuous.
D.Chivers, It has becoming
D.Chivers,
It has becoming increasingly more frustrating to see these posts that are so negative and mean-spirited. I'm also from Berkeley with small children, and have been visiting your site since the beginning of this crisis. I commend you and your team for providing the public with such a great service, I trust your team 100%! Keep up the great work, we've come to depend on you....
Agreed! In the spirit of
Agreed! In the spirit of trying to stay "positive" thru all of this total madness, I read the more negative posts and try to understand the possible emotions (fear, panic, anger, etc.) that create those posts. Then I send a "good vibe" over to that poster and move on. New Age-y but what the hell - these are strange times. Hoping that the BRAWM team can move on too and not let those posts discourage them from continuing their most important work.
For whatever it's worth, I second that, in its entirety. [nt]
Rick.
I don't live in CA (live in
I don't live in CA (live in state of WA), but have been dealing with a ton of anxiety since this all happened, and this site is where I've been turning to every day. Like the poster, I also freak every time my kids eat something that may have been affected. We just ran out of ice cream, and my kids love ice cream. But now I'm afraid to buy it. I go to sleep every night hoping that things will start to get better, but then wake up w/a knot in my stomach wondering what we'll do if it gets worse. And if it's raining, I am completely stressed sending my kids off to school - which is pretty much every day here. I feel like every decision I make could possibly hurt their health down the road. And I can't talk to anyone about my fears because no one wants to talk about it. So thank you for responding to this post as well as for everything you are doing here. It's really the only site I trust.
Now, if only you were here to test the downpour we just had :-(
WA parent, we are on the same page!
I am the original poster and I just wanted to show you some support. Every night I go to bed resolving to calm down and every morning I face another day of anxiously wondering what to feed my kids. I hope every morning it won't be raining because that concerns me. My daughter has track outside, my son's friends all play in the sandbox..the worry feels overwhelming and endless.
I think we need to keep listening to the scientists and not let a lot of the posters on this sight scare us. I keep trying to remind myself that in reading these posts I am exposing myself to the opinions of the people who are the most frightened. I don't blame them, I just need to remember that many of these people may also be against vaccinating their children (and I STRONGLY believe in vaccinations) and are anti government across the board. I hope that doesn't offend anyone...everyone is entitled to their opinion, my point is that there is a lot of fearmongering here and as a parent who wants to function on a daily basis and not make my children crazy I need to remember that I don't generally see things from a "the government is out to get us" perspective. All of us who are parents were exposed to radiation from testing when we were kids. Doesn't make it better but it's a fact. On the Davistown museum website you can see in the 1970's there were much higher levels of I-131 in milk in Boston. Why? Don't know, but there were.
Just know that lots of the doctors being quoted by posters are FAR from impartial. Try not to worry about the rain, levels do appear to be getting better. Listen to the BRAWN team. They say no plutonium from Fukishima yet I read all of these posters ignoring this and saying there is. Listen to the scientists who have the facts. There is no way to 100% avoid the stuff getting into the food. If Dr. Chivers is letting his kids drink milk and eat local produce I truly, truly believe that the levels, however scary they sound, are not dangerous. They said it before, just because something is detectable does not mean it is dangerous.
We do sound so much like
We do sound so much like alike. And I too try very hard not to read or take in too much of the alarmist posts, but it is hard to totally ignore because I tend to over-think things. We also sound alike regarding vaccinations. While I did a ton of research on them, I chose to also do it, but I did spread them out more so that they wouldn't get too much at one time. And while I know that we are all exposed to radiation every day, it's the "extra" amount as well as the cumulative amount that concerns me. And the whole plutonium thing is completely terrifying, so I try very hard to ignore those posts, unless it's from a BRAWN member. Some days, I wish I could just stop "looking" for answers, because I figure most people aren't, which is why they are going about their lives as if nothing was wrong. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. And maybe down the road, we'll find out that we worried for nothing. But then there's the other side of the coin that terrifies me.
The worst part about this is how other countries, like the U.S., can just sit by and watch as this all unfolds. In a way, it's proven that as citizens of the U.S. we are really on our own. Nobody has our backs. Because what did our own president do when this first happened, and the U.S. was told about the fallout? He took his family on vacation to Brazil. Astounding! If that doesn't say something, I don't know what does. But all of this is beside the point now, obviously, and it's all been said before.
Thanks for trying to reassure me. It's nice to know that other mom's feel the way I do ;-) I know very few who seem to even give it a second thought, and I don't understand it. Anyway, hang in there!
Would it be accurate to say
Would it be accurate to say that unless there were some more explosions at Fukushima like in the first few days of the crisis, that airborne radiation is unlikely to reach the West Coast? I noticed that Geiger counters hooked up to radiationnetwork.com for California peaked about 3 weeks after the explosions, around the end of March, then fell off and are now stablizing at a lower level.
radiationnetwork.com
I've been looking at the radiationnetwork.com site, too, and it looks like it's started to climb up again. I find it really troubling...more so for the lack of information out there.
For parents worried about what to feed their kids: I've been finding some substitutes that are working pretty well. Soy and rice-based ice cream, for instance. I think, in general, it doesn't hurt to err on the safe side and limit your exposure when and where you can without making yourself (and your kids) crazy.
radiationnetwork
Ever since last month, I look at radiationnetwork.com a dozen times a day. I think California was usually in the teens and 20's, except for southern California around LA. Don't know why. Also, the center of Colorado consistently has a high count per minute in the 60s - 70s. I assume that's because it's at a high elevation and they're closer to radiation that comes from space. Also, Massachusetts always hovers in the 40s and above. I'm in NYC and I have a Monitor 4 Geiger counter, but it hardly ever passes 20 CPM (unless I point it to a check source, ha). Recently someone started to report around Phoenix, and that reading is in the 50's. Don't know why. Keep in mind the network is made up of several different brands of Geiger counters, also that they count mostly beta radiation, so that is nowhere as precise as the measurements the Berkeley team is taking. Still, CA levels were highest at the end of March and seem to have stabilized at a lower level since then.
I have a geiger counter and
I have a geiger counter and today in central CA the counts are a bit higher than I have noticed for previous days. Not sure why.
Easter Sunday plume...
Please look into the accounts reported elsewhere and from European monitors that say the West Coast of the U.S. was hit by a large plume on Easter Sunday. I am hoping that Berkley was testing for this in our air.
can you post some sources,
can you post some sources, websites for your claim? thanks
What are the counts you are
What are the counts you are getting today versus what you got previously? Have you checked the EPA's RadNet data for your area to see if anything is elevated? Let us know. Thanks!
We just got the counter in
We just got the counter in the mail about a week ago so I don't have any baseline readings....however, the readings for outside our house in the Central Coast of CA were reading in the 40s, then it jumped up slightly to the 50s on Friday, and Sat and Sunday we were down south (I didn't want to scare my family by bringing it...they already think I am crazy for monitoring our family's diet so much). Anyway, I measured it yesterday and it fluctuated between 70-80 CPM during a 10 minute period mid-day. I should keep a log and will start doing this. Also, if any BRAWM member could tell me how to more accurately take readings for air with it I would appreciate any help : )
This a.m. my husband quickly checked it and it was back to 40-45 CPM ...so I felt ok sending my 9 yr. old to school. Needless to say this event has me totally stressed out for my children.
The counts I am getting are usually higher than RadNet, but we are on the coast about 30 mi from Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power plant. ??? Hope this helps.
I would keep a log of your
I would keep a log of your readings on an hourly basis. Maybe a webcam taking pictures of the meter at an hourly rate. This could be done with freeware image capture software. Then you will need to transcribe the results into a spreadsheet and plot. You will get a good understanding of the systematic variance of using this detector within the natural background. Also, do not move the detector from its position once you start. Post your results on our forum! Have fun...
Thank you Dr. Chivers! My
Thank you Dr. Chivers!
My husband and neighbors will think I am nuts! haha...and my children will want to play with it.
I will do my best with this info and at the very least I will keep a log of the readings. I am not sure I have the time or resources to do exactly what you mentioned but it would be interesting. There is a timer option on the counter, though...I have to read the manual first. This is hard with a 6 yr old on break and a very curious 9 yr old around. I have had to explain to him what it is and why I am using it : /
Thank you again so very much....my family is so grateful for your time and work.
Take data for the next few
Take data for the next few months and use it for a science fair project for your 9-year old (or 6-year old). Try to explain to your kids what you are doing and why you are measuring. You may see differences from night and day (called diurnal effects) and from the weather as you may get some extra radon after a rain or during a temperature inversion. If you can take a log on weather as well that would be good. Again, have fun, and don't shield your children from this work. Create two little scientists and they will change the world for the better.
That is a great idea...and
That is a great idea...and way to think of it : ), Thank you. I was hesitant to tell my children too much of what happened and my concerns, however my 9 yr old likes to watch the news and is way too smart to fool, so I did tell him about our food choices, radiation, and the geiger counter. He is very interested (almost too much) so I spare the details but he may love doing an experiment with a webcam and geiger counter : ) I may also..ha. (I was an RA in a past life)
I have an iMac...can you tell me what site I can download the share ware from?
Thank you once again.
eating
What a nice posting from a parent. I lived in Berkeley and I know how good the food is! In fact, I lived just a block from these very scientists doing this great work. I thought they had said that you needn't worry about meat, because the radionuclides didn't concentrate there. If you are worried about milk, you could substitute rice milk for certain uses like putting on cereal. I don't use milk, but I can't imagine giving up real butter. You can find European butter though...
I don't think we can know what will happen at Fukushima yet. Hoping for the best.