ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT
I am incredibly grateful to the BRAWM team for the hard and fine work they have been doing. An incredible public service. At the same time, based on what I know from a professional background at an environmental organization, the literature on non-ionizing radiation and health physicists discussing the fallout, I have been in complete disagreement with the team regarding the interpretation of their results. Here's an editorial from a local paper that sums up the alternative view in a layperson's words: http://alamedasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8433&Ite...
Also I keep coming across public officials' statements, here in North America, that indicate that the levels we've seen in the Bay Area ARE cause for concern. For example from Massachusetts:
http://www.necn.com/03/27/11/Radiation-from-Japan-shows-up-in-Massach/la...
There doing the math on 25x =risky levels=UCB levels in rainwater.
Since the releases from Fukushima are ongoing and could be for a long long time it seems that someone in the state of California could be helping to better put the cumulative totals in perspective (I mean an alternative perspective.) As a parent I'm still trying to decide what precautions to take and my own intuition still says to take plenty of them, but perspective is becoming more challenging as the crisis drags on (very hard to keep a 2 year old out of the mud). If anyone has any leads or thoughts on how we could pull together to provide a framework for interpretation and potentially for common interventions (ways of growing food for example which some have started posting on) I'd be very interested.


Perspective
It's hard to keep a proper perspective here...
There is no telling how much radiation has been dumped into the ocean that will eventual sicken the animals and therefore us; this is continuing, and we certainly don't know the full amount of accumulation - this could go on for YEARS. Think Gulf Oil Spill and how that has not received the proper follow-up attention, at least in our collective consciousness: http://www.floridaoilspilllaw.com/
It is true that the exposure to our radiation on all fronts has risen, and will remain so, at least to some degree. So there is at least a slight increase of dis-ease from this, without question. To what degree, we won't know. To me, this is the most dishonest and deceptive parts of what we are mostly hearing.
The news out of Japan lately is too silent. If they were making progress, we should be hearing about it - they would be pleased to be making these announcements to the global community. We hear about containment structures that they are afraid will be breaking under weight of water, we continue to hear of increased radiation at Fukushima in various places. Every time they stick a finger in to patch a hole, another one opens up.
Interesting
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-rosenthal/level-7-major-nuclear-acc_b...
Mr. Rosenthal reads like he
Mr. Rosenthal reads like he copied a press release from Helen Caldicott.
Hyperbolic and emotional pieces such as this are light on facts and seek to establish legitimacy through fear and an equal amount of misinformation as is ascribed to Govenmental organizations.
I disagree. It was well
I disagree. It was well written.
Maybe as an opinion piece,
Maybe as an opinion piece, but not as a credible source of information.
Folks, I hate to break it to
Folks, I hate to break it to you, but Fukushima will not get as bad as Chernobyl. It won't even be half. And if by some stroke of misfortune it does surpass Chernobyl, realize that Chernobyl was still 1/100 of the radiation from atomic weapons tests.
Even on this forum, a link was made to the BEIR VII reports and that is the most comprehensive peer reviewed risk assessment for low dose exposure and finds that LNT model suffices and low dose is dwarfed by natual causes of cancer.
Yet, some think this is the end of days, and discount all science for their own fears. Throughout all of this, humans will still survive. Sometimes it is the challenge to continue that defines us and makes us stronger, together.
Peace be with you.
Can you please post links to substantiate your comment
that it "won't even be half" [as bad as Chernobyl] since the Fukushima situation is not over yet.
Thank you.
The board you are on has
The board you are on has been giving you the data to see this for the past month.
Please take the time to review it.
Since the Fukushima event is
Since the Fukushima event is still ongoing, a comparative blanket statement that it's not half as bad, a third as bad, etc. cannot yet be scientifically deduced.
What we can say is that both incidents have been rated a "7."
The rest is speculation until All of the facts are in and analyzed years from now.
But what we can do is
But what we can do is extrapolate based on what we know now.
We know that emissions have subsided, this can not be in dispute because we don't see rising levels of nuclides in air samples. We know that based on historical data, Chernobyl gave California 7x more fallout than is currently occurred
from Fukushima. So if it takes 3 months for Tepco to cease all emissions (per their plan, and some experts
believe it will happen at 2 months), then we would be at under 50% of what California received from Chernobyl.
Even if emissions go longer, emissions would have to be 5x current levels to even be half of Chernobyl output, based on CTBTO readings to date.
There just isn't any credible evidence that makes this event larger than what we have already lived through.
Meant to say "two months to cease emissions??? not clean up
Meant to say "two months to cease emissions??? not clean up
Two months to clean it
Two months to clean it up?
The time-line is 9 months, where:
“...during the first three months...the company hopes to steadily reduce the level of leaking radiation”
“Three to six months after that, it hopes to get the release of radioactive materials firmly under control...
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1377819/Japan-Nine-month-plan-seal-Fukushimas-nuclear-leaks.html]
That's still 9 potential months of radiation release.
And the full clean-up may take decades:
“'As for Fukushima Daiichi itself, fully closing up the crippled plant may take decades,'” said Jack DeVine, a U.S. nuclear engineer who helped lead the cleanuper of the Three Mile Island plant in Pennsylvania.”
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/22/japan.fukushima.future/index...
Also,
The IAEA said on April 21:
1. The situation remains serious. White “smoke” is still coming out of Units 2, 3 and 4
http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html
And just when you think things are stabilizing, something like this will happen: a new radiation high level is measured off Japan's seawater “signaling the possibility of new leaks.” (April 16, 2011)
[http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/16/501364/main20054572.shtml]
Again, it's too early to tell how bad this will all be.
Article
April 18, 2011
“Dangerous spike in reactor 3 radiation”
http://americasforum.org/archives/283
Our Exposure Increases Japan's Radiation Plumes More Lethal
The fact that all news reports that the radiation plumes are growing, not decreasing, belies the information on this website.
While I believe all are well intentioned, I do not believe that everything is safe. It does not make common sense to say that the levels of radiation are dropping when the plumes are increasing and more lethal as time goes by - there have been 2 known hydrogen explosions and we have spent fuel rods exposed to air and burning. This just doesn't pass in my book.
Also I am getting really tired of all the cloud cover. There are people who know what this is about and could speak out. They should be motivated to do so for their family and friends.
There is no scientific
There is no scientific evidence that we are seeing an increase in radioactive particles from Fukushima relative to the beginning of the event. As I have mentioned time and time again, the information on this site is as unfiltered as you will get anywhere. We are posting as much as we find and we interpret the results using the most cumulative peer-reviewed literature we have to date on exposure to ionizing radiation. We respect those who disagree with our interpretation in a scientific manner by providing counter references. There are plenty of other sites who will feed the hunger for conspiracy theories, but this is not one of them. This forum was setup to aid in communication between the public and our team on the methods, results, and interpretation of our observations. These observations are direct measurements and have been provided as a service to the public to keep them informed on the levels of exposure.
Perhaps you could clarify
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "There is no scientific evidence that we are seeing an increase in radioactive particles from Fukushima relative to the beginning of the event."?
As far as I can tell, based in part on the IAEA reporting of daily depositions, the release of radionuclides has continued. I suspect that the reactors are releasing radionuclides at generally lower rates than what was being released earlier on. Enough of the short lived radionuclides may have decayed and thus the present total amount of those radionuclides present in Japan, or here in the US, may be lower now than what it was some time ago. However, in the case of longer lived radionuclides, the total amount present in Japan, and here in the US, should be greater now than what it was in the beginning. For example, there should be *more* Cesium-137 in Japan, and here in the US, now relative to earlier on.
Do you agree with that?
I don't have to agree or
I don't have to agree or disagree,...,my scientific evidence is right in front of me (and in front of you) in the form of direct measurements. I will clarify: all indications from our measurements and others in California doing independent measurements are that levels are dropping here in California. It is a reasonable assumption due to weather patterns that this also means levels are dropping in the rest of the US.
The intent of my previous
The intent of my previous post (my first in this thread, FWIW) was simply to encourage clarification. I assure you it wasn't an attempt to pin you down into a simple "I agree" or "I disagree"!
What does "we're seeing lower levels" or "levels are dropping" mean and what doesn't it mean? I think some elaboration is required to understand this because there are various levels/amounts (for each and every radionuclide) including:
1) That which is in the air and has not yet been deposited
2) That which is being deposited... the additional wet & dry depositions
3) The cumulative total amount deposited (since the beginning)
4) The cumulative total amount deposited minus that which has decayed (what is still present in the environment somewhere)
5) The cumulative total amount deposited in a specific location minus that which has decayed and minus that which has migrated elsewhere (what is still present in the environment but not at that specific test location)
For example, surface air concentrations and rainwater concentrations might decline and also result in new depositions declining. Until all new depositions cease, total cumulative deposition would continue to increase. Short-lived radionuclides may decay faster than the new depositions of said resulting in a declining level of what is still present in the environment. Long-lived radionuclides may not decay fast enough to offset the new depositions of said resulting in an increasing level of what is still present in the environment. Winds, runoff, deeper soil penetration, and/or uptake into harvested crops can lead to a specific surface soil location containing lower concentrations of a long-lived radionuclide but that doesn't mean the amount present in the environment has declined to any significant extent or at all. For example, I would think it critical that farmland soil testing always be accompanied by crop testing because soil concentrations would tend to fall as a radionuclide is taking up by the harvested crops.
Although my description may be imperfect, I think it is a fair quick glance at the complexities of fallout and the environment. When I earlier asked you if you agree, I was actually trying to ask if you agree that there are such complexities as well as encourage you to shed light and clarification on them.
I bothered to do this because I think over-simplification is one threat we face. A specific real world example would be Japan and hotspots such as Iitate Village. I can remember Japanese authorities publicly declaring that "radioactivity levels were falling" (which to some extent was likely true, as they *later* admitted that they were only performing simple total background type analysis) even as new depositions of longer lived radionuclides continued and rendered the land less and less fit for habitation and especially for farming which was common in some of the hotspots).
Many years ago a neighbor of mine had some kind of trash day accident with a bean bag chair. When I took my trash out it at first looked as if it had snowed... the surround yards, sidewalks, and street were covered in tiny white pellets. Even after a concerted cleanup effort (which included vacuuming some pellets out of the grass!) there were a massive number of pellets remaining. Although they clearly weren't decomposing, over time they slowly disappeared from sight. Some were blown and washed into the storm sewer and subsequently into a local river and so forth and so on. Some were blown and washed into those places on our properties where things naturally collect. Some simply worked their way down into our yards and gardens where they could be dug up long after their release. The Fukushima "white pellets" are a mixture of fast, moderate, and slow degrading ones. I think in addition to cheering the ones that are "biodegrading" quickly as well as those that get blown and washed away from our specific yards, one shouldn't forget about those that will be around for a long time and an effort should be made to track their migration.
Good point. Nice bean bag
Good point. Nice bean bag analogy
Actually, you can see the
Actually, you can see the cumulative effect in your cs-137 milk measurements, they are still going up!
a story some might find interesting
I worked for a major computer company. Days before the plume reached the west coast I resigned and took my family east driving. (i have a young daughter) Keeping tabs on the plume we kept in front of it and by luck missed most of it in the deep south. Eventually it caught up but the gulfs wind patterns knock most of it back up east from my observations. I follow a lot on line, from here, all news, blogs, arnie gunderson, all the report, everywhere I can find.
It was scary to watch people on the news say it was ok and the govt say it was ok WHEN THEY DIDNT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS OK? They had little data, cause until it hit only Tepco might have known and I doubt they even knew other than HOLY S$^% what do we do!!! ARGH!!
When I was younger I started a job where I almost destroyed all the merchandise in the wharehouse in one second. I stood there paralyzed, having rammed the pallette racks with a forklift . Luckily I fixed it by luck or fate where pushing it back it all bent back up into shape, but had I not I would have had to just walk away. It was like such an Oh s%%% moment, i couldnt tell anyone. I never did. It was so bad...eventually they saw damage but did not know how it happened to infrastructure. I think TEPCO knows its SO bad theres nothing to talk about. Its damage control and cover thine ass. Whatever isnt found out by luck, the better in their minds. The world has to figure it out ourselves.
So that said, here it is over a month later and I am en route back to coast to tie things up, but the data and accumulation is worrisome.
When I took off, I thought people would panic and evac en masse but no one had a clue. They all beleived the media. But it wasnt a huge BANG event like I thought it could be... hits, radiation sickness...over. Its a LONG emergency that drags on slowly poisoning. Like the slow unwinding of the us economy, and letting the truth be known might cause far more damage.
So I try to stay informed and those I know, but as one wise man told me once "sometimes the truth is hard or impossible to get at".
If that japanese could send balloon bombs over in WW2 its obvious microscopic particles in a jet stream efficiently can move.
The BRAWM? team though I feel there could be a conflict of interest, but I think being students from UC Berkeley believe in truth. Nuclear lasts a long time, even if it is just to be decomissioned! Theyve already given enough data to show, its not safe. Since no level is. I thank them for keeping that going, it is honorable and they are heroes as long as they report true results and are not coerced or otherwise convinced to modify their true findings.
In my travels many expressed worry across the USand did not trust the EPA, or other govt officials. Obama went to South or Central America right when the plume hit. If Iwas him and I told people it was safe I would have sat my butt right at the center of where the plume was to hit and stand outside eating large leafy veggies. Lay out on the beach.... Then I would drink CA milk (2-4 liters?) every day until the crisis was resolved and 6 months after that.
So what to do, what to do. Go one with life taking precautions and when the data (eventually it will through social networking and people who care about people) maybe head to South America?
The west coast is contaminated and luckily we werent here for rains, but its still coming in and in the food supplly and building.
It has been quite an adventure and scary at first. I send people here, but you cant preach. People have to figure it out themselves. They are just being spoon fed what they want to hear.
Good luck to all of you
Thunder
On the post above, obviously
On the post above, obviously I meant "ionizing" radiation -- wish we were only dealing with non-ionizing radiation!!