Heavy Fog
Not sure how high up the atmosphere the Fukushima pollution is, but I was wondering if heavy fog in the bay area would cause more deposition and inhalation exposure for people outside. Is that testable?
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Not sure how high up the atmosphere the Fukushima pollution is, but I was wondering if heavy fog in the bay area would cause more deposition and inhalation exposure for people outside. Is that testable?
We have a strange mist kind
We have a strange mist kind of fog today on the east coast. I can't explain how/why but this is more like an autumn kind of sky than spring.
Okay, Google autumn fog and
Okay, Google autumn fog and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's strange for spring.
I'm on the CA central coast.
I'm on the CA central coast. I've noticed the air smell and try to figure out what it is. Not skunk, not sulfur, not ozone - but something like a combo of that. It's not a natural occurance.
Also, the other night, the sky was clearly yellow. Could it be iodine? Clouds have been ominous looking and very low - much more so than the June gloom fog clouds (and it's nowhere near June).
Other strange events relate to precipitation. This area had massive storms end of March (when xenon was coming over in large quantities). We do not get rain like that and especially not for days. Also, we had a 15 minute hailstorm, (I think April 6th) which is really strange. Weird clouds for that too.
Tonight the air smells and it's misty/foggy. To the poster who was wondering about xenon reacting - it shouldn't because it's a noble gas.
From following the
From following the observations of many posters regarding the "strange clouds",it seems like there is a correlation to radionuclides. This is a summary of my findings: Objectively, the clouds are dark/gray/metallic; they absorb or disperse light;can tend to hover near water; and look "weird". Subjectively, a sense of fear exist, physiological pains occur to some, a metallic taste/smell. There is a recurring pattern here that cannot be dismissed--even if science does not understand its implications yet. And to refresh our minds about science: the greatest thinkers used both their perceptions and intellect in the road to discovery.
fuzzy air and weird weather
Interesting thread!
Here in Sacramento, the weather has been strange, and the air has a very Lfuzzy" quality to it, for lack of a better term. I was wondering if I was imagining it - my eyes are having a difficult time, they are quite sensitive.
I suspect some humans are very sensitive to many of these changes, the way some are sensitive to chemicals, or wireless, or flourescant lights (for different reasons perhaps!). My German Shepherd has immune system dysfunction, which somewhat mimics many of the symptoms of radiation poisoning (to a lesser degree though). He has had a flair-up of his disease process - he might be in a vulnerable group.
I hate to draw conclusions, but I'm very concerned.
Hello Lisa I live in Oakley,
Hello Lisa
I live in Oakley, not far from Sacramento and I noticed more sand in the air than usual. Where I live there is a lot of sand, but lately, I just feel that it is more. Not sure whether it has anything to do with it.
Did you notice anything in Sacramento?
I also have a dog, but limit walking him as much as I can. He was unlucky enough to have drunken rainwater when it was contaminated.
Hello Lisa I live in Oakley,
Hello Lisa
I live in Oakley, not far from Sacramento and I noticed more sand in the air than usual. Where I live there is a lot of sand, but lately, I just feel that it is more. Not sure whether it has anything to do with it.
Did you notice anything in Sacramento?
Just for the paranoid (and Mr. Chivers), this article:
This article says Florida already has higher levels of Cesium-137 because of experiments the US did back in the 1950's/60's.
http://nuclearhistory.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/cesium-137-and-strontium-...
This is f*ing chilling and relates to the weather issues (from the link):
"Abstract:
Cesium plasma clouds have been emplaced in the 90 to 103-km altitude region of the ionosphere by rockets and by a 7-in. gun. These clouds have been studied by coherent-pulse-doppler, high-frequency radar for three purposes: (a) to investigate neutral gas and magnetohydrodynamic motions in the clouds, (b) to investigate the role of such motions in forming the plasma clouds into persistent, artificial, sporadic-E patches, and (c) to investigate the potential of such clouds for illuminating the near-over-the-horizon region and detecting small targets in that region. Parts (a) and (b) of this study are continuing efforts in basic ionospheric research which will be reported elsewhere. This report concerns the third stated purpose, which may be of importance for over- the-horizon surveillance radar. Evidence has been acquired which demonstrates that the objective of achieving over-the-horizon illumination by this means is possible. Earth backscatter echoes have been found to display an adequately narrow spectral dispersion to permit velocity-discrimination of moving targets. Examples are given of earth backscatter and probable over-the-horizon aircraft echoes from cesium plasma clouds."
I'm not sure I understand.
I'm not sure I understand. The abstract from your link was published in 1969 at the height of above ground nuclear weapons testing both in the US and USSR. The abstract is below. The abstract you have placed here does not have a reference (kind of a bait and switch...or am I missing something?).
Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 in Florida Milk - A Five-year Study of Distribution and Levels
Roessler, C. E.; Williams, E. G.; Nettles, E. D.
Abstract: Unusually high 137Cs levels and 137Cs/90Sr ratios in milk collected at the Tampa, Florida, station of the U.S. Public Health Service's Pasteurized Milk Network prompted a statewide study of radionuclide levels in Florida milk. Raw milk has been collected monthly since 1963 from individual farms throughout the State and composited for analysis on the basis of six regions. Levels of radionuclides in the Tampa milkshed were found to be indicative of average concentrations in milk from much of Florida. There was a statistically significant difference between. average levels of 137Cs and 90Sr in milk from the northwestern part of the State and those in the balance of the State. Furthermore, the data suggested a gradual transition from lowest 137Cs and highest 90Sr levels in the northwestern part of the State to higher levels of 137Cs and lower levels of 90Sr in the "peninsular" portion of the State with the highest 137Cs levels occurring in the central part of the State. The levels and geographical pattern of 90Sr were consistent with the current understanding of the geographic distribution of radioactive fallout deposition in this country. However, the contrasting levels and distribution of 137Cs suggest that some unusual mechanism is responsible for concentrating this latter nuclide in the local environment in a large portion of Florida.
(C)1969Health Physics Society
I don't really understand where that came from either
but when I saw the link I thought it might be legit (but I did not post the link and merely saw the abstract at the link posted by someone else).
I did not men to bait nd switch and maybe the blogger did. But if its a legit abstract it is damn interesting with respect to the issue of whether radionculides alter light, weather patterns, perhaps etc.
I will dig around tomorrow and see what i find. Too late now for me to search it tonight.
BUT if its legit abstract, maybe it has some relevence to dispersion models and impact on clouds and weather. That is why I quoted it. Sorry there was no link for it at the blog but...
Still it is a mighty odd abstract. And a little spooky if real.
Not radioactive cesium
I did find that abstract on the original page but further down. There is no direct link but it can be downloaded from a military website linked there.
I looked into that report, and it is clearly not radioactive cesium that they are using. They were exploding small samples of non-radioactive cesium at very high altitudes in order to produce electrically-charged clouds that would help radar measurements.
Mark [BRAWM Team Member]
Thanks --- but still the questikn remains re: cesium
Maybe they were not using radiocesium (which is reassuring) but the question remains whether radiocesium in the atmosphere would have a meteorological impact or "change the light" or consistency of clouds and refraction.
Kind of an obscure tangent but still an interesting one given the feeling that folks here have expressed about "nuclear skies" and strange weather or clouds.
Sorry to distract you folks but maybe this is worth a looksee by someone somwhere scientifically or academically at some point, so it is maybe worthwhile for it to appear on this forum where someone may see it and pursue it.
I can just tell from my
I can just tell from my experience. I think standing water makes at least the xenon worse. I live in Oakley and on some days, I honestly can smell something in the air, that I think must be xenon, on top of it, the air feels very stuffy. Anyway, I am in Palm Beach now in a hotel next to the waterways (more or less standing water, at least no waves etc.) and this morning I woke up and there was heavy fog over the water and that smell, - exactly like in Oakley, California. I am not making this up.
That led me to the conclusion that maybe close to water that is not next to strong winds, the xenon seems to be worse.
For example a friend of mine lives in Castro Valley with a lot of wind and he says he does not notice anything.
Anyhow, that is my observation. It could be that the fog water particles stay in the air longer, and not move as much and that could trap the xenon, because in Oakley, that particular stuffy air with that characteristic smell was worse at night when Oakley was covered with heavy fog.
Not sure about the San Francisco Fog as there is usually more wind though.
fog
Hi,
I am also curious about how a heavy marine layer will change air quality. We live on the coast and most of our summers are socked in. I'd like to know what to expect, and if it is less safe for my child to play outdoors in heavy fog or mist.
Thank you for your work.
I hesitate to say this because it is troubling
I did some volunteer work with the radiation and public health project (RPHP) which colects baby teeth for testing for strontium 90 (which locks into the teeth during gestation and infancy when the mother is exposed).
While every tooth tested had detectable levels of Strontium 90, The HIGHEST levels of Strontium 90 were found in teeth from kids who lived in areas along the ooast. The conclusion was two fold: that the evaporating water near effluent pipes at nuclear plants got into the air along the coast (within one mile of the coast near reactors had the highest levels detected) and that the waves' action on the beaches put the aprticulates into the air. Also the beaches and water would be heavily contaminated near liquid effluent pipes (as they are permitted to release radionuclides in these pipes and into the air as part of normal operations).
I have to add the following: in the past decade or so I have lost a brother, three cousins and a close friend to bone, organ and brain cancer. Two of my female cousins and friend and brother ALL lived on or near the water near nuke plants and my friends and two cousins were all in their early 40's and spent LOTS of time either on the water or near it. My two female cousins had relatively young kids, were very well off, ate well, lived in moderation, and lived within five miles of a nuke plant that flushed its effluents into the water near where they lived and played. My friend was an avid fisherman and his last job was working near a nuclear facility for the state where his job was to survey fishermen for their catch rates in the region so he spent LOTS of time on the water.
IF you live near a nuclear plant on the water near you (uptstream), the risk is much higher that you may be exposed and that the fog and mist and sea air is contaminated with radionuclides.
It sucks but this is what the epidemiologists and the scientists and MDs doing the research told me directly.
Their peer reviewed data and articles may be read here (they are reviled by the industry but their credentials are impeccable and their integrity is unquestionable):
www.radiation.org
They need support to do more research if you want to help. But read their data and articles and learn how serious these problems really are even when there ISN'T a meltdown.
And I should also say how
And I should also say how sorry I am for your losses.
It seems like every time I turn around, I hear of someone with cancer. I'm very sorry for what you've been through.
Thank You. The excellent author Michael Steinberg wrote
a book about his experiences called "Millstone and Me: Sex Lies and Radiation in Southern Connecticut"
He uses the term "Sacrifice Communities" to describe those who live near nuclear power plants and facilities where there are imense cancer clusters (especially childhood leukemia).
I cannot even begin to count the number of friends I have known from the community where I lived (near a nuke plant) who have died or are now battling terrible cancers, birth defects and other health problems such as hypothyroid disease and metabolic disorders.
I disagree with Mr. Chivers that nuclear power is here to stay. It is an archaic and unneeded technology and far too dangerous and unmanageable and subject to human error to continue as an option.
As we learn these lessons we must integrate them into community awareness and political action.
Wow, that's really
Wow, that's really frightening. :-(
Can you tell me what constitutes living "near" a nuclear plant? We are about 120 miles from Diablo Canyon.
Does anyone know if ocean water itself is being tested? I read that there is a current that runs along Japan, up near Alaska, and directly down the west coast. I wonder if wading in the water is now off the table.
Thank you.
Well, it partially depends on if you are downwind or downstream
for example Indian Point releases effluents into the Hudson River (less than 50 miles from NYC) and Vermont Yankee and Haddam Neck leaked into the connecticut river where it goes downstream to Long Island Sound.
My family and friend who died lived within five miles of the nuclear plants but on or near the water.
If the prevailing winds from Diablo Canyon blow in your direction, emissions may be spreading in your direction.
But look at Tokyo which is more than 100 miles from Fukushima and still got high levels of radioiodine in their tap water for a period of time.
For regular radionuclide emissions any is too much imho and being exposed at all is too close. Again, too, it is also a function of weather direction, precipitation, amount of effluents and emissions, etc..
i would certainly never wade
i would certainly never wade in florida water since the oil corexit, and until i learn more about the radiation, i will not be wading on the west coast either.
i am wondering how surfers feel about this.
Xenon is a noble gas and
Xenon is a noble gas and thus has no smell. Noble gases have full electron shells and are very non-reactive with their surrounding environment. In order to smell a substance, it needs to chemically interact with the protein odorant receptors in the nose.
thanks for that info. I am
thanks for that info. I am wondering what else it could be then that I believe I notice in the air? Maybe a reaction of xenon with something else?
it is usually associated with a feeling of stuffiness, maybe the xenon is reacting with other molecules in the air that create that "smog like" stuffy quality of the air?
I guess we will never know as I can imagine that if a plume passes through it probably has other chemicals in it.
Florida has a lot of ozone.
Florida has a lot of ozone. I wonder if xenon or iodine reacts to ozone.
You're not the only one smelling something. I've read that in other posts, so don't think you're imagining it at all.
That could be it. Ozone may
That could be it. Ozone may react with those atoms.
You're right!
Found this:
"Iodine does not react with oxygen or nitrogen, but with ozone it forms an unstable oxide, I4O9."
Source: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Iodine
________________________________________________________________
“...ozone immediately attacks iodine, forming a greyish-yellow powder, and the ozone is destroyed without change of volume.”
Source: Book: “A comprehensive treatise on inorganic and theoretical chemistry, Volume 2” by Joseph William Mellor
_______________________________________________________________
Now I understand why there's been a powderiness to the air.
But this also concerns me regarding inhalation.
Interesting
That is an extremely interesting find about how ozone reacts with iodine to form a yellowish powder. That would explain why the yellowish powder was found all around Japan too.
I guess everyone that thought this might be just pollen is learning something, maybe this can be researched further in the near future by the Berkley team.
Pollen?
Pollen?
First it smelled like metal.
First it smelled like metal. A few days later sulfurish, or as I equated it to the spice turmeric (Yes, turmeric). It happened when the first plume hit and didn't go away until it rained heavily. It happened again the last few days.
totally agree. I am curious
totally agree. I am curious where are you located? Also, that sulferish smell could be the nuance that I was smelling too.
We will be investigating
We will be investigating correlations with weather in the future. I doubt we will be sensitive to this effect since we are taking 24 hour air samples.
Very interesting. I have wondered about how radionuclides
in the air might affect the light refraction, color of clouds, action of clouds, etc.
In particular on the east coast when we had rain predicted the rain just turned into a foggy soup and I read the entriesd here on "nuclear skies" and strange light and starnge looking clouds.
It doesn't seem like a strecth to imagine that if certain gases like radioiodine or particulates might alter the "look" of clouds and even their behavior (such as causing the sky to "heat up" and vaporize rain droplets in the air.
Fascinating stuff and I wonder, Mr. Chivers, if any of you folks know of any research on this. In this day and age it seems as we collect data on where the plumes go and what is in them we might see correlations.
I too noticed the clouds seemed to be "different" but wondered too if it was just my imagination since I knew there was radiation most probably in the clouds and this gave them a more ominous look (even when it might be totally unrelated)to me.
Do you think your investigations might get into that?
Probably beyond the scope of
Probably beyond the scope of our expertise. There are others that can take up this flag. Just like any experimental research, these data will spur many spin-off studies, most of which will not be done by us directly. This is the way it has been since the dawn of modern science: someone measures something, publishes results, and others work to update theory. We are on the experimental side of that scientific spectrum. If some angel wants to get us a plane, I would be glad to take samples at altitude. Maybe Google is listening...
That would be great. Wish some angels would get Strontium 90
detecting equipment.
When I did some work with the Radiation and Public Health Project we found that lobsters tested near nuclear facilities in Long Island Sound were full of strontium 90. The equipment was very expensive as were the tests (they've been testing baby teeth for strontium 90 as it locks into the teeth and enamel of baby teeth in utero).
The industry claimed that found in baby teeth came from Chinese nuclear testing, even though the rates were higher near nuclear facilities than elsewhere.
In any case...if you have measurements of radionuclides from the rain and air you can probably determine how "potent" the clouds of rain were with the various contaminants from Fukushima.
Might be beyond your capacity right now but if one bright grad student writes a proposal you might get the funding for it and maybe somebody at google IS listening. Imagine that: Google radioactive earth: real live time tracking of radioactive plumes and their impact on weather, health, infant mortality, bioaccumulation, etc.
I just hope Google is not owned by energy companies who will kill swuch research or bury it.
and hell, you can always foster and develop that expertise --- surely there is somebody there somewhere at UC who is into Meteorology and who would be interested in tracking plumes and precipitation with contaminants and I am sure there is a market for such data, especially in organic agribusiness.
Just theorizing...Cesium 137
Just theorizing...Cesium 137 is hot. Could it explain the tornadoes which occur when unusually warm air meets cold air?
Original poster here. thanks
Original poster here. thanks for all your input. I will look into the link to the peer-reviewed studies of baby teeth/strontium.
I have to say it is damn frustrating to learn that the FDA plans NOT to monitor fish caught on the West Coast. This question of fog is a real concern for me living in SF with a young child. It sucks that we have to rely on curious academic experts for transparent monitoring, and that they lack the resources to monitor everything (like fog).