PLEASE STOP COMPARING THIS TO XRAYS, CT SCANS AND CROSS COUNTRY FLIGHTS!
We thank the people serving at Cal for having and maintain this site, its helpful knowledge and empirical data.
Having an honest, scientific source is both redeeming and invaluable to many of right now.
Let's agree to leave the comparing of apples to oranges to the folks in washington.


Agreed. Please just report
Agreed. Please just report the data.
Disagee - please provide context.
Disagree. Data without a proper context doesn't yield understanding.
In addition to the data, one needs a context or framework for that data.
Telling someone that Fukushima is adding 0.004 mrem to their radiation exposure isn't very informative to someone who doesn't understand what "mrem"s are.
However, if you explain that an airline flight from LA to New York, for which they accept the risks; provides one thousand times the radiation exposure above, then one can put the risk in context and keep it in perspective. ( Of course, that's the last thing the anti-nukes want. They want to exaggerate the risks of Fukushima beyond all rational discourse. )
If you don't like this
If you don't like this comparing, than please get your information elsewhere. This is helpful information for many of us. The Berkeley team is providing a great service to the public, and doesn't need any more criticism.
Get a grip folks. We don't
Get a grip folks. We don't need capslock shouting matches. The OP does have a point that whole body effective dose and ingested dose may equate to the number of Sieverts/mRem, but there is quantifyably different effects.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/The-U-N-Would-Never-Lie-t-by-Joe-Giam...
Comparisons
I have to say, I think the person who posted about "apples and oranges" has a point. I understand the Berkeley Lab staff's desire to provide approximations for the sake of real-world, easily comprehensible comparisons, and I desire wholeheartedly that they continue to do so. However, isn't there a MASSIVE difference between "exposure" (that the OUTSIDE of the human body is subjected to, with all its thick dermal layers and defenses), and respiration / ingestion? That "relative dosage" from a chest X-ray might have VERY different effects on a human (or other) body when it's doing its nasty work of decay FROM THE INSIDE, where it has DIRECT INFLUENCE on the fragile cells of the lungs, GI tract, muscles, and blood...
I also want to make an observation. Right now there are several different strata of people (in the U.S., anyway):
- Those who have zero, or next to zero, "general" knowledge of this ongoing event (many even think it's "already over and done with")
- Those who have some knowledge, through conventional media sources like top-of-the-hour news bulletins, local news and national newscasts, who realize it's still ongoing but have become convinced that it's of very little interest or importance, for now anyway
- Those who have "kept up" with the ongoing crisis on the Internet, and are at least nominally aware that the situation is NOT "over" and that there are ongoing concerns, but primarily to Japan ONLY
- Those who have done some "independent research" and are monitoring events overseas with something approaching concern
- Those who access sites like this, and are beginning to become panicked by what they're reading -- and what it may mean for ALL OF US.
It's the LACK OF INFORMATION that's maddening. Everyone -- TEPCO, the oversight authorities in Japan, the Japanese government, and the U.S. Government included -- seems to be whistling past the graveyard and pretending that this ISN'T an immediate and grave danger to the entire global population. People in positions of power are playing at three monkeys: See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, and there's a DEAFENING SILENCE from the REAL experts. Case in point: I've seen a dozen different nuclear scientists, many representing one or another corporate or industry interest, flapping their mouths about how "insignificant" expected "exposures" are for the general U.S. population. But I have yet to see ONE actual NUCLEAR MEDICINE expert who has been willing to exposit on the difference between EXTERNAL EXPOSURE and RESPIRATED OR INGESTED DOSES of quantities of iodine, cesium, etc. What gives? I don't normally give much credence to conspiracy theories, but at THIS point at least, I'd expect SOMEONE -- from the Union of Concerned Scientists, or Greenpeace, or, heck, the Sierra Club -- grabbing the microphone and speaking their mind. But... NOTHING. NO ONE is talking. And it's beginning, to me at least, to seem a little like Gene Krantz during "Apollo 13": When it was suspected that the re-entry capsule was underweight, and "shallowing" its angle of atmospheric interface, and might skip off the sky and head out into unrecoverable space, Krantz asked: "Is there anything we can do about it?" and received the answer, "Not now..." To which he responded:
"...THEN THEY [the Apollo flight crew] DON'T NEED TO KNOW, DO THEY?"
Is THAT what this is? We can't run from it, we can't hide; every single soul on earth is going to just have to take what's coming? 'Cause, while that might prevent panic in the short term, folks with knowledge and / or power and influence need to understand something: It is becoming evident that we -- the global population, I mean, is either being "handled" (especially by the so-called responsible parties in Japan, who are so inconsistent, mercurial, detached and daffy that they make the Keystone Kops look positively professional), or is being GROSSLY MIS-SERVED by The Powers That Be, from Fukushima to Tokyo to New York to Washington, D.C. to London to Vienna. There are some smart people who are getting SICK of the bad (or, even worse, "managed") information -- when there IS any -- the inconsistencies, the indecision, the lack of visibility, to say nothing of transparency, and, perhaps most damaging, the growing feeling that people who have the responsibility to inform, to act and to lead are fiddling while the world burns. There is a gnawing, growing dread out there, in its own way as cancerous and damaging as anything that might be in the air, on the land or in the seas; and there isn't much more time remaining before unsettled, nervous, scared people start acting out. With the shift in tone, here and in many other places on the Internet lately, I can state with confidence that this IS beginning to occur. That, at least, ought to light a fire under people with degrees, microphones and corner offices to start saying SOMETHING other than, "Nothing to see here, folks! Move along!"
It's not "massive"
However, isn't there a MASSIVE difference between "exposure" (that the OUTSIDE of the human body is subjected to, with all its thick dermal layers and defenses), and respiration / ingestion?
=============================
Yes - there is a difference between an external source and an internal source - but that difference is taken into account in dose calculations.
For example, when you calculate the dosage due to an external source, you take into account the attenuation provided by the dermal layers. The dose calculation quantifies how much energy was deposited doing biological damage to cells.
Since the dose is quantifying the biological damage done by the energy deposition, it's not that important what the source of the radiation is. As long as you do the calculation properly, taking into account attenuation for external sources as well as considering both radioactive and biological half-lifes for internal radiation sources; you should be able to quantify the damage - and in the end - damage is damage.
Thank you for such lovely insight skillfully expressed.
Really appreciate your contribution here. I've linked this page to my FB page, presently just as a status update. I'd really love for more people to have access to something like a "best links&thinking on Daiichi fallout" I don't yet understand the best most functional method of offering the choice fruits of my web browsing on this subject to the web or my FB community(I'm thinking about starting an open FB group maybe) but a link to this thread and your contribution to it will certainly be in attendance.
To the OP, at this point I
To the OP, at this point I trust the people here at Berkeley to compare my oranges and apples more than the people in DC.
Like R Cromack, I'm constantly on the lookout for legitimate, truthful news. Most of that is found in foreign papers, tweets made by journalists in Japan, and Japanese/American bloggers living in Japan.
Maybe I'm missing something but I don't really remember Washington saying anything about this situation except "Don't worry".
The one thing I do know is that the EPA has been less than truthful (I'm being kind), concerning information on their website. They've removed and changed information and ignored important facts that should have been posted. And along with that, I don't need some happy, little colorful map. I learned to read when I was four. All I want is the truthful findings from their tests and some unbiased background information pertaining to those tests. I'm not a moron or a child that needs government lackeys to draw pictures for me and tell me everything is going to be ok.
The fact is, any normal American who wants to get detailed information concerning the EPA's findings must file a request under the FOIA. And we all know how long it will be before those findings will be released. That's criminal.
I want the information and the truth. We are getting neither right now.
I'm afraid if I let Washington touch my apples or oranges they would steal them and then lie to me about it.
what is required
is something like Fairewinds but with a trusted well known respectable person to explain the data in terms people could understand. Celebrity doctor? IDK
What I mean is, simple simple explanation even a child could understand.
Here is North America. here you are. Here is the ongoing? plume. Here are the detected isotopes, here are the possible isotopes. HEre is what it known in the plume, here is what a projected accumlation might cause longterm...etc.
THEN people would be informed of what they face. For some, the idea of moving is out of the question. For others with kids, the truth or even ongoing updates might be a cause for action for the protection of their children. Then at least people have been warned.
sadly economic factors and power are the only thing keeping this quiet. The US economy is on the ropes. Knowledge of the truth might be the knock out punch. Instead people will figure it out 10 years from now like in most of these events...
what is required
is something like Fairewinds but with a trusted well known respectable person to explain the data in terms people could understand. Celebrity doctor? IDK
What I mean is, simple simple explanation even a child could understand.
Here is North America. here you are. Here is the ongoing? plume. Here are the detected isotopes, here are the possible isotopes. HEre is what it known in the plume, here is what a projected accumlation might cause longterm...etc.
THEN people would be informed of what they face. For some, the idea of moving is out of the question. For others with kids, the truth or even ongoing updates might be a cause for action for the protection of their children. Then at least people have been warned.
sadly economic factors and power are the only thing keeping this quiet. The US economy is on the ropes. Knowledge of the truth might be the knock out punch. Instead people will figure it out 10 years from now like in most of these events...
trust is earned
It is not criticism to ask for what one desires. Perhaps some gratitude mixed in with the request would have made it less likely for you to hear the request/preference as criticism. We live and learn! I too have been thankful for UCB's invaluable offerings AND in pain hearing this utterly precious resource accidentally propagating (as so many of the "news sources"have) once again such unhelpful and misleading comparisons, at least without explaining the very significant differences. Not to mention that even the whole "air flight" thing on its own is being presented and propagated in a misleading way. I recently read of a prominent nuclear physicist who will only book nighttime flights because he understands very clearly how the earth at night blocks most of the exposure. Devils/angels in the details. I now follow his example. Accurate information contributes to everybody's real peace. ego tries to satisfy itself with a cheap imitation- obliviousness. The mgmt of EPA is rather famous for its cynical prioritization of attempting to CALM the public into an unaware, uninvolved and unrespeonsive obliviousness. So let's us not "give a pass" to our "good thing" when its falling a bit short here or there or failing in any small way it's mission.
Comedy routine
This reminds me of the old Bill Dana comedy routine where his alter ego Jose Jimenez was an astronaut and said he was going to land on the Sun. The straight man asks if that would be very hot, and Jose says, "It's OK, we're going at night!"
Seriously, most of the radiation received in an airline flight is from cosmic rays, and it doesn't matter which way the Earth is oriented. You get the same radiation dose at night as in the day.
Nighttime Flights?
My understanding is that most of the radiation we get from flights comes from cosmic rays - rays from outter space, NOT the sun, so flying at night would not make a significant difference. Yes, the sun does ocassionally produce flares and those produce high energy particles, flowing from the sun are carrier via the "solar wind" which, get channeled to the earths poles via the van allen radiation belts. The van allen belts start about 150 miles up... way above the altitude of a jet aircraft, so flying at normal altitudes should not create a greater risk due to exposure. Of course, rarely, some flares could be extraordinarily strong, and these might present some risk to people in jet aircraft. However, the larger threat that a super flare might cause would be a blackouts in the electrical grid over a geographically large area (due to fried electrically transformers, circuits, etc), potentially for days or even weeks (think what this means for nuke plant cooling!) The flares and their impact are basically uncontrollable - its one of the things that keeps Nuke plant people up at night. Check out http://www.eissummit.com/images/upload/conf/media/EIS_Kappenman_Part1.pdf
Personally, I don't think flying at night makes all that much difference. I'm much more concerned by the unpredictableand catastrophic potential of a super flare.
night time flights
TT
I'd love to see the reference you mention on a nuclear physicist booking nighttime flights. I've considered doing it and would like to pitch the idea in my family.
Thanks
On rereading I do see the gratitude there...
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