Why do you compare cross country flight doses to air and water (internal) doses?
It has bothered me for some time that xrays, cross country flights, bananas, sleeping next to someone etc are compared in terms of exposure (by the media and others) to actual ingestion of radioiodine and other potentially dangerous radionuclides.
Hoew does it make sense to even compare external exposure to the potential exposure and absorption by thyroid, bones, teeth and other internal organs if we breath the affected air or drink milk, eat produce etc which will expose us INTERNALLY?
Isn't this a false comparison?


I wonder how much money
I wonder how much money has gone into development of Nuclear Energy, and marketing, compared to that spent on studying the adverse affects.
I'd bet not much as a ratio.
When we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were perplexed to hear rumors from the Japanese that we'd dropped "Poison Bombs."
This was preposterous. Eventually we sent a team of scientists that told us - well, yes you did drop poison bombs (i.e. radiation poisoning).
You see, we were really pretty ignorant about what would happen. And you can see we still are (willfully ignorant, since the status quo feels threatened).
ALERT!!! REVISIONIST HISTORY!!!
You see, we were really pretty ignorant about what would happen.
==================
BALONEY!!! The scientists that developed nuclear weapons and the military that dropped them were fully aware that the devices would leave fallout.
That was NOT a mystery to neither the scientists nor the military that the bombs would lead to fallout.
The very first nuclear test at Trinity in New Mexico was done with the bomb high on a tower. The whole purpose of the tower was to get the bomb away from the ground as much as possible to minimize ground irradiation by neutrons and thus to minimize the fallout from the first test.
We were NOT ignorant about fallout. We knew there would be fallout and took steps to minimize it in the first test.
Airplane flight or ingestion
Read this on a blog someplace:
Which would you rather do?
a) Sit next to a roaring fire.
b) Swallow a red hot ball bearing.
The fire is going to expose the body to many orders of magnitude more infrared radiation than the ball bearing but obviously the total body exposure of the fire is going to be harmless while swallowing the little red hot ball bearing will be disastrous - even though the ball bearing will expose the body to much less total infrared radiation. Then lets imagine that the ball bearing will be red hot for 300 years.
Does this analogy make sense to anyone?
Anonymous
And...
...what if this analogy uses a slightly different Radioactive isotope, maybe one of the friendlier/safer Radionuclides(not that nasty multi-emitter Cs-137), how about we try a simple 'Double beta' emitter, say Tellurium-128, which has the longest measured half-life of all radionuclides (approx. 2.2 septillion years) ...sigh.
All joking aside(though an internal/external roaring fire for a septillion years does sound nice, a kind of perpetual 'burning man', they can even add that to their new business plan), I was hoping you (or we) might offer a convincing analogy so as to wake up and reach the Hearts and Souls of those sheeple studying/working 40-80 hours a week, who come home exhausted, toss some food type product into the microwave, then kick back in front of the boobtube (must decompress you know, time to watch 'amerika's next idiot', the 'stupid bowl', 'march sadness', 'fauxnews', etc), and then after a little rest (yes, wicked), get up and do it all over again, all while attempting to keep that two week attention span intact.
Nothing like the power of a good analogy (though it is said we have the technology to build it bigger, faster and better any day now, just you wait and see!), please keep researching and sharing.
oh, go Giants and fear the bearded isotopes (rotfflol) :p
Yes even our
EPA states this it is fact inhalation is the worst form of exposure...
We continue to defend this
We continue to defend this topic with references and sound methods recommended by health physics researchers here in Berkeley. Please visit our FAQ for more information.
This topic deserves debate
This topic deserves debate and study.thanks to the brawn team for publishing there findings.the major concern I have is I really have no choice of avoiding these internal emitters as I do have some limited control over external radiation .
You really don't have that
You really don't have that much control over external emission exposure unless you house yourself in a lead box...even then you still have cosmic radiation to deal with. Most of your external and internal exposure comes from potassium and radon (thorium decay chain emitters) which are natural in our environment. The exposure to man-made nuclides are extremely small when compared to these natural sources BOTH internally and externally. For the most part, the body does not know the difference between exposure from man-made and natural sources. They all produce oxygen radicals (the dominant exposure pathway for damage) which have some minute probability of interacting with DNA. However, oxygen radicals are created in the millions every day within your body from natural chemical metabolic processes and the body has repair mechanisms for these (think antioxidants). Problems arise from exposure when the density of radicals in a local region of tissue get too high to overwhelm the repair mechanisms allowing cell division to occur before repair. The levels of extra exposure we are observing from this event is not expected to produce a noticeable difference in the density of these radicals that would warrant concerns for safety. This is all in our FAQ.
For reference on oxygen radicals see this link
This is an outstanding answer...
...Many thanks, once again, Dr. Chivers and BRAWM / UCBNE!
Quick question for ya: OTHER than actual radioactivity, are there any "toxic" qualities of cesium or other isotopes / materials likely to be encountered in future, resulting from Fukushima, that we ought to be concerned about?
Cheers,
Rick Cromack.
Allen, Texas
RichardFCromackJr@gmail.com
Because denial ain't just a
Because denial ain't just a river in Africa
New York Times article on this subject
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/health/05primer.html?_r=1
Suppose my children will
Suppose my children will never take a cross-country flight. suppose they will not take any x-ray or CT scan (hopefully). Then, they have an absolute risk (and not relative) from this fallout, isn't that so?
So my question to the team or anyone qualified to answer is: forget about cross-country flight - What is the risk in terms of radiation related ilnesses for these numbers (cumulative) in food, water, air and soil.
Thanks again for your work!
comparison between food ingestion and cross country airline flig
Please add my voice to those who find the comparison between the radiation dose from food ingestion and a cross-country flight invalid. I posted my angst on my blog recently. It broadens the subject a bit. I am not a physician or scientist, but an educator,disaster preparedness specialist and nurse. Comments would be appreciated. My original blogpost follows.
From the Department of Nuclear Engineering, UC Berkeley. See link at the bottom of the post.
Notes from your editor: The numbers in parentheses after the radiation activity level indicate the number of kilograms "that one would need to consume to equal the radiation exposure on one round trip flight from San Francisco to Washington, D.C. (0.05 mSV)."
For example, one would have to consume 2, 570 kg of spinach contaminated with Cesium-134, purchased on 4/7/11, to absorb the equivalent radiation from making one SF to DC flight. One kg equals 2.2 pounds. So, for that batch of spinach, one would have to eat 5654 pounds to equal the radiation exposure from one flight.
But is it reasonable to compare the dose from a round-trip airline flight to the amount in particular contaminated foods? Here are some reasons why this comparison may not be valid:
For an airline flight, the radiation source diminishes rapidly with altitude so that the dose effectively vanishes (to background level)at low altitudes.
For food, soil (and also milk, water and other sources) that have been contaminated, radioactivity persists. Once radioactive materials are taken into our bodies, they stay there for varying periods of time, until they decay or are excreted. Meanwhile, our cells, tissues and organs are being bombarded by radioactivity according to the energy of each type of radioisotope and its effective half-life.
The physical half of Iodine-131 is relatively short, but Cesium-137, which accumulates in muscles and other tissues, has a half-life of 30 years. The effective half-life of Cesium-137 is 110 days, still a long time.
We eat several types of food at each meal and we drink beverages, several times a day, day in and day out. Since each type of food we eat and each liquid we drink is contaminated with radioactivity, each time we eat or drink it, the cumulative dose should be taken into account for all the foods and liquids we ingest for every day they are taken into our bodies. (Note: water from covered wells, springs and reservoirs may not be contaminated.
Neither UC Berkeley nor any other entity is testing for all radioactive materials arriving via the jet stream from the Fukushima plant in Japan. Berkeley is testing only for Cesium-124, Cesium-137 and Iodine-131, Iodine -132, and Tellurium-132. The EPA tests for far fewer types. Other unidentified radioactive particles are also getting into our food, water, soil, animals, homes and businesses.
Radioactive particles from Japan have been scattered over the earth for five weeks (at the time of this post), with no end in sight. These radioisotopes are accumulating in our bodies, soil, water, crops, animals, oceans and atmosphere faster than they are being removed through decay and other processes.
Due to the large amount of contaminated grasses and contaminated water consumed by grazing animals and the concentration of radioactivity in milk, milk and other products of grazing animals contain more elevated levels of radionuclides than other foods.
We cannot shield ourselves from radiation in food and water (or air). We must take these substances into our bodies to survive. Most of us have a choice about taking cross country trips; whether to take them at all or to travel by train or car.
There are many more sources of radioactive particles from Fukushima and routes of entrance into our bodies than are noted above or tallied.
In addition to eating and drinking them, we are inhaling these same radioactive particles, adding to the internal radiation dose. Hot showers aerosolize the particles, so they are inhaled from this source as well. Sweeping and vacuuming redistributes settled particles into the air adding to the particles that are inhaled. Vacuums with HEPA filters may filter out some particles.
Some types of radioactivity penetrate our skin, or enter our bodies through cuts or other skin openings
The continuing contamination from Fukushima effectively distributes radioactive particles onto every surface and object in our lives, either directly or indirectly. For example, we track these particles into our homes, businesses and other destinations on our shoes. Our pets are contaminated. We take showers and wash our clothes and dishes with contaminated water. We touch contaminated items with our hands and then put our fingers or the contaminated items into our mouths. Contaminated objects themselves may emit radiation, albeit tiny amounts.
Excerpt from UC Berkeley testing report:
Radionuclides, once deposited by rainwater or air onto the ground, will find their way through the ecosystem. We are already tracking its path from rainwater to creek runoff to tap water, but we would also like to monitor how much these isotopes that make their way into our food. For example, how much gets taken up by the grass and eventually winds up in our milk?
We have been collecting produce that is as local as possible to test for the radioactive isotopes. We might expect different kinds of plants to take up different quantities of cesium and iodine, so we are trying to measure as many different plants and fruits as we are able to. So far, we have measured grass, wild mushrooms, spinach, strawberries, cilantro, kale, and arugula. We have also measured local topsoil.
Link
Milk, air, rainwater, streams mean INGESTION
comparing the amounts to round trip air trip cross country undermines your credibility.
PLEASE can you provide some data, since you are claiming low or almost no risk, to compare the dose to the thyroid from radioiodine or the dose to internal organs (breasts, ovaries, testes, bowels, uterus, etc) of cesium with known or expected rates of cancer incidence and death (mortality).
PLEASE too keep in mind that hypothyroid disorder, which messes up the entire endocrine system, also can be a result of radioidine exposure. We ay not die of thyroid cancer, but we may have damaged immune systems, metabolic disorders (fatique, weight gain, deression) hormonal disruption, emotional problems etc fom radioiodine that doesn't actually kill us or give us a thyroid tumor.
We need cogent info and not analogies which your own FAQ states is not a good comparison (exteral exposure vs internal exposure(!
The measurements are really meaningless to the general public if we have no PROPER context to understand the potential consequences from INGESTING radioiodine and radiocesium and the whole radioactive cocktail which the nuclear industry and government has now, once again, forced literally down our throats, into our wombs, our gestating fetuses, our breasts, our balls, our ovaries, our dna and the dna of all future generations, mutating cells and carcinogenic!
It is essential that IF you are saying the risks are low and we can compare them to real life stuff, that the real life tuff is actually comparable so we can assess the risk of drinking three glasses of milk a day or a milkshake or butter or fresh cheese (or should we freeze it?) as well as produce at the farmer;s markets.
It sucks but we need analysis that is not boilerplate PR about it being no more dangerous than a flight cross country or an xray (which we all now know increases our cancer risk)
AGAIN - THANK you for this testing and results and this forum. There is nothing else like it and this is why your candor and accuracy is SO critically important to your fllow Americans and fellow human beings! (From the poster of the OP)
PLEASE do NOT provide a facile and banal answer
if you do not have the info on the actual risks from ingesting, say, three 1/2 liter glasses of radioactive iodine in milk a day for a year , then please try to find links so there is no more of this banality about flying cross country etc and external dosing.
WHAT thresholds are we looking to avoid altogether and cumulatively?
Maybe you can find some premed students to join your project and dig up the studies or some MDs with experience in the actual effects of radiation internally at the doses we are receiving or may expect to recieve if these rates of exposure continue for months and years (given the hlaf lives of cesium getting into our soil and plants etc)
I would also like to see a
I would also like to see a better comparison. I would much rather take a flight to New York than drink a glass of water with particles from a failed nuclear reactor.
What if I had already received my "yearly maximum dose" from a bunch of x-rays. Would the amount I am now getting through the air, rain, tap water, and probably soon to be produce and dairy products send me over my personal limit, there fore posing more of a health risk? And if that is the case, shouldn't the government issue a warning to at least those that do receive a high level of radiation to take precautions.
You could compare this to rBGH and rBST in diary products. The United States is the only country in the world that says this stuff is safe and allows it's use, yet personally I don't want it in my food and would like to know when it is. For me the same goes for radiation. The EPA might say it's safe at certain amounts, but that doesn't mean I want it in my food and water and would also like to know if it is.
An analysis of why the ICRP risk model is completely wrong
http://www.counterpunch.org/busby03282011.html
Chris Busby's analysis of the problem with the prevailing risk model you are using to allay our fears may be useful for your work and that of your students.
He says in the linked article:
"Why is the ICRP model unsafe? Because it is based on “absorbed dose”. This is average radiation energy in Joules divided by the mass of living tissue into which it is diluted. A milliSievert is one milliJoule of energy diluted into one kilogram of tissue. As such it would not distinguish between warming yourself in front of a fire and eating a red hot coal. It is the local distribution of energy that is the problem. The dose from a singly internal alpha particle track to a single cell is 500mSv! The dose to the whole body from the same alpha track is 5 x 10-11 mSv. That is 0.000000000005mSv. But it is the dose to the cell that causes the genetic damage and the ultimate cancer. The cancer yield per unit dose employed by ICRP is based entirely on external acute high dose radiation at Hiroshima, where the average dose to a cell was the same for all cells."
This is why I suggest that your comparison to a cross country flight is misleading. I have been following this debate between the ECRR and the industry proponents for years which is why I question your use of the analogy. ONE rqadioiodine particle absorbed into the thyroid
can cause damage at the cellular level. So comparing to dull body exteral sources is, in my opinion, seriously misleading and inaccurate.
Thought you should at least be aware of the details of the ECRR radiation risk models and the shortcomings of the risk model you are using to try to reassure the public. If your risk model is flawed and underestimates risk by tens or even hundreds of times (or more) than other credible models, perhaps you should refrain from reassurances which may put us at greater risk because we do not take the precautionary measures (especially pregnant and nursing women, fertile women, and children of all ages who are most at risk and MORE at risk if the risks are downplayed).
Again - the FACTUAL measuring of your team itself is wonderful and I am deeply appreciative of it.
The '500 mSv dose to one
The '500 mSv dose to one cell' comparison is misleading. It's just playing with numbers by reducing the mass in the absorbed dose per mass calculation. One has to look at the larger picture, because the fact is that nobody cares if one cell is damaged or dies. We care about a lot of cells being damaged.
This is an inherently statistical process. Radioactive decay is inherently random, its interaction with matter is largely random, and the risk at the low doses we're dealing with here is cancer risk. Random.
You'll want to reduce your radiation dose as much as is within your power, but let's keep it in perspective. If the dose from this accident received by a Californian is really <0.1 mSv, why worry about it? You're getting 6.2 mSv every year just from being alive.
Lastly, all radiation damage is at the cellular level, regardless of whether it was an external dose or an internal dose.
And although there are many types, they're more similar than you think. The danger with all types is ionization of atoms inside your body. The main difference is how concentrated the damage usually is (hence the misleading 500 mSv alpha particle number).
See the FAQ here:
See the FAQ here: http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2044#dosecompare
It says they are not comparable
Quote from FAQ:
"The dose from an X-ray or plane flight is different in that it is all-body or large-area dose, and the specific type of radiation may differ from radioactive isotopes. Equivalent dose calculations try to normalize for all of these differences and ultimately quantify the (very small) risk."
It seems to me that the noble efforts of the Berkeley group, which I applaud, simply fails to address the comparison properly when showing us the amounts of radiocesium and radioidine when they do an inapt comparison which may undermine the confidence in statements that these "miniscule" levels are not worrisome.
Better, in my opinion, to avoid such comparisons to external exposure altogether and compare the amounts to actual levels which show dose amounts of specific radionuclides breathed in or ingested compared to the amounts believed or known to be hazardous, with the understanding that no dose is considered "safe" (which actually seems to contradict all the EPA IAEA and media accounts which parrot the comparison to cross country flights or xrays and cat scans etc.).
Getting this info with the help of medical analysis and studies would help allay fears (or at least establish what the risks MAY be from low amounts).
Some studies by the scientists and doctors with the Radiation and Public Health Project www.radiation.org seem to conclude that very low doses can be harmful and that the concept that there is an automatic proportional dose-harm correlation may be inaccurate (in other words the risk is not directly proportional at a steady rate and may actually be higher at lower doses and curves off somewhat lower as doses increase - kind of like second hand smoke which is easier to be absorbed). I am not a scientist so I can't assess or explain this very well - but there is research on it which sounds credible.
In any case ---
Is it possible to get a better and more accurate analogy of the possible exposure when ingesting these radionuclides than comparing them to external exposure?
Thanks for this forum and this site it is remarkably helpful in trying to get a grip on all this.
One has to be cognizant of
One has to be cognizant of all of the studies and not just the most conservative. There are also studies that show that low-dose radiation is actually beneficial. This is counter-intuitive and I'm not sure if I buy into it. However, these studies are peer reviewed and published in the same manner. We have cited and continue to use numbers derived by the International Committee on Radiation Protection (ICRP) who reviews all literature on the matter and publishes best estimates for health effects and low-dose models. At this point, I continue to reiterate that to the best of our knowledge, there is no zero risk exposure but that the risks must be taken in context with other risks we see everyday relative to radiation exposure (i.e. normal environmental background). That being said, the risk is extremely small relative to normal risk of living in a naturally radioactive world.
Are you familiar with the critique of the ICRP model by the ECRR
Thanks for your response. This whole effort to reach out is very gratifying.
The following ECRR position statement says the ICRP methods com-pletely underestimate the risk. I know that the ECRR and ICRP have been batling for years (and share some crossover members as well) but
two things/questions:
1. Are you familiar with this critique and have you considered it by the ECRR (European Committee on Radiation Risk)?
A recent statement sums it up here:
http://www.nirs.org/reactorwatch/accidents/ecrrriskmodelandradiationfrom...
and,
2. once again, while I appr4eciate that all of life and probably all radiation exposure has risks (after all mutations and adaptation drives evolution), is it possible to have a BETTER comparison on your data pages than to cross country flights that actually correlates to the risks by either ICRP and/or ECRR which have differing views but kind of lay out the range of possibilities for the risks of actual harm?
Thanks
Can you please explain what
Can you please explain what it could mean that low dose radiation is beneficial, in what context? In particular, what bothers me about the announcement of healt officials about the "miniscule" fallout in California is, that it only causes very minor health consequences.
What is the consequence of radiation, if not cancer? Semi- cancer? Pseudo-cander? I am infuriated about health officials making statements like that, on top I have not heard a single announcement of the governor of California about the current situation.
I am a physician and to my knowledge there is no benefit from low dose radiation.
I would have thought
I am a physician and to my knowledge there is no benefit from low dose radiation.
=====================
I would have thought a physician would be better versed in the science.
Here's one paper on the effects of low dose radiation:
https://www.llnl.gov/str/JulAug03/Wyrobek.html
The team also discovered that the human lymphoblastoid cells exhibit what is called an adaptive response to ionizing radiation. An extremely low dose (also called a priming dose) appears to offer protection to the cell from a subsequent high dose (2 grays) of ionizing radiation. The degree of protection was measured by the amount of reduced chromosomal damage. A priming dose of 0.05 gray, administered about 6 hours before the high dose, can reduce chromosomal damage by 20 to 50 percent, compared with damage to cells that were not exposed to the priming dose.
The above research shows there is less chromosomal damage from a high dose of radiation of 2 grays if it is proceeded by a low dose of 0.05 gray.
Wha?
The study you cite appears to show that low doses of radiation cause some change that makes the cell less vulnerable to slightly higher doses of radiation. This is not a positive health benefit of radiation, it's just the body doing it's best to mitigate the effects of a toxin.
By analogy, getting a small case of typhoid (as by a vaccine) produces an adaptive response that protects against full-on typhoid later. Fine, but we don't conclude from this that typhoid is good for you.
But we do..
By analogy, getting a small case of typhoid (as by a vaccine) produces an adaptive response that protects against full-on typhoid later. Fine, but we don't conclude from this that typhoid is good for you.
=================================
But we do conclude that a typhoid vaccination is good for you.
That's what the whole concept of a vaccination is all about - giving someone a small dose of some disease or pathogen.
Therefore, one can't conclude that "pathogens are always bad for you". If the pathogen triggers the immune response, it is good.
Likewise, we can conclude that a small amount of radiation can be good for you.
Hence, the "no amount of radiation is good for you" conclusion is false.
It is important to note that
It is important to note that radiation hormesis has not been proven conclusively within the scientific literature, but there are signs that our immunoresponse has evolved to use low levels of radiation to inhibit spontaneous cancer occurrence resulting from other natural factors. Radiation has been around since the beginning and therefore it is reasonable to assume that organisms evolved complex synergies with this environmental factor.
Anonymous wrote... >What is
Anonymous wrote...
>What is the consequence of radiation, if not cancer? Semi- cancer? Pseudo-cander?
According to some including those who contributed to "Chernobyl: Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment" there is a long list of consequences other than cancer.
There is research to support
There is research to support hormetic effects of low-dose radiation. I do not necessarily buy it, but it is important to know all literature on the subject matter.
"All literature on the subject matter"
There actually was a request made for literature/studies/etc on another chain in this forum:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2118
It's been updated with a variety of links to research (contributed by community members) on the effects of low level radiation. Would be great if Brian or someone else from your team could update that page as well. How much do we really know about what the effects are of this level of radiation/fallout? Seems like not very much since the data is typcially extrapolated from higher dose rates in different situations.
I think that
a comparison to cigarettes/smoking is probably more accurate here...
Agreed
Perhaps the team here can compare the dose we're getting to number or packs of cigarettes smoked.
From
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert
Yearly dose examples
Living near a nuclear power station: 0.0001–0.01 mSv/year[8][10]
Living near a coal power station: 0.0003 mSv/year[10]
Sleeping next to a human for 8 hours every night: 0.02 mSv/yr[10]
Cosmic radiation (from sky) at sea level: 0.24 mSv/year[8]
Terrestrial radiation (from ground): 0.28 mSv/year[8]
Natural radiation in the human body: 0.40 mSv/year[8]
Radiation produced by the granite of the United States Capitol building: 0.85 mSv/year[15]
Average individual background radiation dose: 2 mSv/year; 1.5 mSv/year for Australians, 3.0 mSv/year for Americans[10][5][11]
Atmospheric sources (mostly radon): 2 mSv/year[8][16]
Total average radiation dose for Americans: 6.2 mSv/year[17]
New York-Tokyo flights for airline crew: 9 mSv/year[11]
Smoking 1.5 packs/day: 13-60 mSv/year[15][16]
Current average limit for nuclear workers: 20 mSv/year[11]
Background radiation in parts of Iran, India and Europe: 50 mSv/year[11]
Elevated annual regulatory limit for workers during Fukushima emergency: 250 mSv/year[18]
Perhaps it is more comfortable to compare to something that you personally dislike (smoking) than something you like (flying in a plane)?
BS Comparisons
"One would have to drink roughly 3,800 liters of milk to receive a radiation dose equivalent to a round-trip cross-country flight."
UNTRUE. One would receive a very different radiation dose in the form of I-131 irradiating them from the inside out. The radioisotope I-131 is not at all comparably to a distant source. Its bioefficiency is that it concentrates in a specific organ -- the Thyroid gland. The comparison is gravely flawed.
The problem here is that it is not only the amount, but also the character and nature of the exposure that counts. For instance, often the fallacy of the Banana Equivalent Dose (BED) is bandied about to prove the safety of nuclear engineering. The basis of this is that a banana that naturally concentrates potassium contains a certain naturally occuring amount of K-140, which is radioactive with a half-life around a billion years and decays enough to tweet detectors at airports. The difference between consuming the banana and the milk is that people have evolved to handle that level of naturally occuring potasium. High I-131 concentrations are largely a human construct without evolutionary bases.
Read this:
http://www.psr.org/resources/health-risks-releases-radioactivity.pdf
"What is clear is that there is no lower limit of exposure under which there is no damage and which can be considered 'safe.' Any amount of radiation will damage cells and it is the delicate balance of repair mechanisms that determines the ultimate outcome of health or disease. There are many factors that come into play. It is like dropping a raw egg. Sometimes it breaks, sometimes it does not. Whether or not it breaks depends on a variety of factors like how it lands (on the side or the edge), the height from which it drops, what it lands on, etc. (I know, we have hens and sometimes I drop the eggs)."
PULEEZ!!
Read this:
http://www.psr.org/resources/health-risks-releases-radioactivity.pdf
==========================
PULEEZ
Physicians for Social Responsibility is a NOT a medical or scientific organization; they are political activists.
Practically every professional scientific organization in the field of radiation protection has condemned their tripe as mere fear mongering for political gain.
Try reading something from an honest scientific organization like the Society of Health Physicists
Calculations
So if 1.5 packs/day = 30 cigarettes that's 10,950 cigarettes per year to get to the 13-60 mSv/year figure 30 x 365 = 10,950).
That means smoking 1 cigarette = 0.001 mSv to 0.005 mSv (13 mSv/10,950 cigs vs 60 mSv/10,950 cigs).
Professor Chiver's post yesterday indicated a 0.01 mSv exposure (see http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/2082 - "The low-dose that the ICRP speaks of is normally at the levels of the 50-100mSv rather than the .01 mSv level we are estimating in this case"). Gues that means we're looking at a 10 cigarette exposure...not sure what period of time/amount of exposure the prof was estimating...hopefully not our daily exposure. I'm reallly worried about all of this adding up as the radiation continues to be vented by the TEPCO employees managing the crisis.
Let's not get off track.
Let's not get off track. Water and milk are INTERNAL. Flying in the space shuttle while getting a dental xray is EXTERNAL.
The OP would like an apples to apples comparison.
Cumulatively, how many days of X milliseverts of Y will result in a lethal dose?
And when will you start testing for:
Krypton 85, Krypton 85m, Rubidium 86, Krypton 87, Rubidium 87, Krypton 88, Strontium 89, Strontium 90, Strontium 91, Yttrium 91, Yttrium 92, Yttrium 93, Zirconium 93, Zirconium 95, Niobium 95, Zirconium 97, Niobium 97, Ruthenium 103, Argon 39, Argon 37, Carbon 14, radioactive carbon dioxide (14CO2), and tritium, and finally sea-salt-transmuted chlorine-36.
??????
There have been threats of
There have been threats of shutting this site down if there is anymore dissent. We must all contact the news when that happens. Back up all data you have collected here.
That's news to me.
That's news to me.
Bump and addendum by our
Bump and addendum by our EPA....
http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/rert/radfacts.html
What are the types of radiation?
Alpha particles can travel only a few inches in the air and lose their energy almost as soon as they collide with anything. They are easily shielded by a sheet of paper or the outer layer of a person's skin. Alpha particles are hazardous only when they are inhaled or swallowed.
Beta particles can travel in the air for a distance of a few feet. Beta particles can pass through a sheet of paper but can be stopped by a sheet of aluminum foil or glass. Beta particles can damage skin, but are most hazardous when swallowed or inhaled.
Gamma rays are waves of pure energy and are similar to x-rays. They travel at the speed of light through air or open spaces. Concrete, lead, or steel must be used to block gamma rays. Gamma rays can present an extreme external hazard.
Neutrons are small particles that have no electrical charge. They can travel long distances in air and are released during nuclear fission. Water or concrete offer the best shielding against neutrons. Like gamma rays, neutrons can present an extreme external hazard.
Radioactive particle contamination in our food/seafood
In reply to the below: As suspected, even scientists reached the same common sense conclusion I did about seafood in the link w/article title and quote and, the complete decay chain time line of radionuclides is not the same as the half life-key in Marshall Islands, Plutonium urinalysis. Cs-137 is also still present there since 1946 when they did the multiple tests in the Bikini Islands (or maybe the fission products there are creating more Cs-137 so that's why the it's there well beyond the 30 year half-life it's supposed to have?)The natives have plutonium in their bodies as well which is many times what the bulk of the world's inhabitants all have (yes, we all have Plutonium etc. in our pee!)
Since they live, eat, drink and breathe daily in a radioactive particle rich environment they are the perfect 'guinea pig' example of the maximum a population can have of particles irradiating them over average to above average lifetimes along with the effects both short and long term.
Here's a link to the whole article concerning seafood with title and a quote from a scientist:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367710/Sushi-menu-fears-rise-Ja...
NO SUSHI: RICE AND RAW FISH COULD BE OFF MENU AS FEARS RISE OF JAPANESE FOOD CONTAMINATION
By Mark Duell
Last updated at 6:50 PM on 18th March 2011
"...atomic research expert Dr Prabu Kesavan said: 'The amount of contaminated fish and others will be a small proportion.'
'But you don't know which one is contaminated and which one is not. So the precautionary principle is to ban all fish coming from there."
Also, since the Ocean and Atmosphere are contaminated and will rain the materials onto us and agricultural lands, the best we can do is MINIMIZE ingestion. For now and until Fukushima is sealed in a stable concrete sarcophagus, the only solution I have living in one of the Western States (Reno, NV)is consuming no milk, no soft cheese products for the next 4 to 6 months(maybe more? I don't know how long I can hold out for-almond milk seems OK but of course, the water in any of the substitutes likely carries an unknown but less quantity of Fukushima waste than dairy milk) such as for example: yoghurt, mozzarella, cottage cheese, waiting out the next 3 months before eating certain types of produce, eating more vegetarian canned or dry foods (ie:beans, legumes, rice, pastas and cereals, mostly organic grown oatmeals and less frequent consumption of flesh foods such as chicken, beef and eggs.) Can't use soy for health reasons, see http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz for why soy that is not traditionally fermented is harmful over long term usage.
-Off my menu: All Seafoods because the oceans really are a military and industrial sewer! Yes, I will miss Anchovies on my pizza, fishsticks, red snapper, tuna (even 'chicken of the sea' is no longer 'worthy,'crab, fake crab (made with Pollock, an ocean fish), clam chowder, Caviar etc... See: http://pstuph.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/can-ocean-currents-transport-radi...
Bump and addendum by our EPA....
http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/rert/radfacts.html
What are the types of radiation?
Alpha particles can travel only a few inches in the air and lose their energy almost as soon as they collide with anything. They are easily shielded by a sheet of paper or the outer layer of a person's skin. Alpha particles are hazardous only when they are inhaled or swallowed.
Beta particles can travel in the air for a distance of a few feet. Beta particles can pass through a sheet of paper but can be stopped by a sheet of aluminum foil or glass. Beta particles can damage skin, but are most hazardous when swallowed or inhaled.
Gamma rays are waves of pure energy and are similar to x-rays. They travel at the speed of light through air or open spaces. Concrete, lead, or steel must be used to block gamma rays. Gamma rays can present an extreme external hazard.
Neutrons are small particles that have no electrical charge. They can travel long distances in air and are released during nuclear fission. Water or concrete offer the best shielding against neutrons. Like gamma rays, neutrons can present an extreme external hazard.
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A list of foods that concentrate radioactive materials?
Looking for a list of foods/plants that have an affinity for radiation.. Sunflowers and artichokes appear to have such an affinity, and read recently the green tea from japan having higher levels.
Is there a common list available to the public of food items that concentrate / attract more radioactive materials?
NOPE!!!
Sorry but foods / plants don't have an affinity for radiation.
Foods / plants have affinities for materials based on the CHEMISTRY
But for any given element, there can be a radioactive form of that element and a non-radioactive form and the plant / food can't tell the difference.