The Nuclear ‘Take Away’

The 'Take Away' from the 'Nuclear Age' is a somewhat mixed bag.

Military: The atomic bomb immediately ended WWII and arguably saved the lives of ~ 1M USA military combatants. The expansionist ambitions of Joseph Stalin and Chairman Mao were held in check by Pax Americana, arguably allowing the continuation of Western Civilization. Today, about 10 nations possess nuclear weapons and have not used them in decades, except in a few underground tests. Military atomic accidents and incidents have occurred at manageable levels.

Medical: Nuclear imaging, diagnostic and treatments have for the most part been beneficial to the particular patients, without causing many alarming health hazards to others.

Commercial: Smoke alarms save lives. Nuclear technologies such as taggants and weld inspection have been generally safe and beneficial.

Commercial Nuclear Power Plants have failed to safely and economically generate electrical power.

IMHO,

Bill Duff

Rude Dog RANT

Rude Dog RANT

The Rude Dog RANT has been going on for some time now.

Rude Dog is rather beside himself, that the English Language is based upon words and not terms, unlike the classical Greek Language. The MANY common usages of the words heavy and water, partiularly in close proximity, mightily OFFEND the Rude Dog.

Well, the Rude Dog is 'barking up the wrong tree'.

Terms and Terminology

I think we can all see what the anti-nuke want; they want to bastardize our scientific terminology.

As an analogy, let's consider the isotopes of Cobalt, instead of the isotopes of Hydrogen.

Scientifically, we have non-radioactive, stable Cobalt-59. There is also radioactive Cobalt-60. We make Cobalt-60 from Cobalt-59 by irradiating it in a reactor; so Cobalt-59 is the source material for Cobalt-60. However, it is NOT radioactive until we actually irradiate it in the reactor.

If we have 100% Cobalt-59; we call it "Cobalt-59" and say it is "non-radioactive.

If we have 100% Cobalt-60; we call it "Cobalt-60" and say it is "radioactive".

If we have a mixture of Cobalt-59 and Cobalt-60; we call it "a mixture of Cobalt-59 and Cobalt-60" and we consider it "radioactive" since it has a radioactive component of the mix; namely, the Cobalt-60.

With this terminology which all scientists use; the terminology tells us what we have, and what its radiological state is.

Not so with what the anti-nukes have in mind. Just as our ignorant pinhead wants to call everything "heavy water" whether it contains radioactive Tritium or not; we can call everything with any isotope of Cobalt in it as "Cobalt-59".

That way, any time we have Cobalt with any mix of isotopes we call it "Cobalt-59". That would mean that sometimes the material we call "Cobalt-59" will be radioactive. That is, sometimes "Cobalt-59" would be radioactive, and sometimes it wouldn't be radioactive. This would be just like our resident pinhead idiot telling us that sometimes heavy water is radioactive and sometimes it is not radioactive.

Under this bastardization of the terminology, one couldn't tell the radiological state of the material from its name. Sometimes "Cobalt-59" is radioactive, and sometimes it is not radioactive. Therefore, one would have to consider anything called "Cobalt-59" as radioactive, in order to be safe.

This confusing situation is EXACTLY what the anti-nukes want!! They don't want people to be able to distinguish what is radioactive or non-radioactive; or more to the point, what is dangerous and not dangerous; from the name. They want it all collapsed into a common name; both dangerous and not dangerous. Therefore, prudence would dictate that everything so named would be considered "dangerous".

This is the same standard procedure of the anti-nukes to EXAGGERATE everything. They would like anything called "Cobalt-59" to be considered dangerous. They want anything called "heavy water" to be considered dangerous by the public.

It's a well worn trait of the anti-nukes. We have Helen Caldicott telling us that a single kilogram of Plutonium dispersed into the environment will kill all life on the planet. However, as documented here, the amount of Plutonium actually in the environment from the years of atmospheric nuclear testing is 10 metric tonnes, or 10,000 times what Caldicott says is a fatal dose for all life on the planet. How much of our dose do we get as a result of the nuclear fallout from those atmospheric tests? The following chart courtesy of the Health Physics Society chapter at the University of Michigan:

http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radrus.htm

shows fallout as being <0.03% of our background dose. In other words, Mother Nature irradiates us with over 3,000 times the amount of radiation that we get from the 10 metric tonnes of Plutonium, which is 10,000 times what Caldicott tells us will kill all life. So Caldicott is at least in error by a factor of 30 Million; all because she EXAGGERATES.

We have the same thing with Arnie Gundersen. It was bad enough that Fukushima had a bad hydrogen explosion in Unit 3; but, as per anti-nuke tradecraft; Gundersen EXAGGERATED this incident in claiming it was a "nuclear explosion" when all the science says it wasn't.

That's where our resident pinhead, whose knowledge of science isn't befitting for a child in elementary school; is so abjectly gullible as to believe Gundersen's EXAGGERATION. The idiot is so self-righteous that he / she can't believe that he / she has been DUPED by Gundersen's EXAGGERATION; witness his / her futile protestations when confronted with the scientific facts.

It's all a propaganda campaign to fear-monger and to get the public to be afraid of a technology that our fear-mongers don't have the brainpower to understand. The computer industry faced non-acceptance by people who were afraid of computers taking over the world, or, at least, taking over their jobs. Of course, this is nothing new. Back in the 19th century with the advent of the industrial revolution, and automatic looms; we had the Luddites that didn't have the brainpower to understand these new machines; and hence were threatened by the machines taking over the menial jobs that were the only jobs suited to these humans with limited brainpower.

Once again, those with limited brainpower are rebelling against a technology that was fostered by fellow humans with much more brainpower and intellect than they have.

I would suggest that they should be proud of their fellow humans; the scientists / engineers that are more mentally gifted that they are. They should take a lesson from the French. Courtesy of PBS Frontline:

Why the French Like Nuclear Energy

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/french.html

In France, unlike in America, nuclear energy is accepted, even popular. Everybody I spoke to in Civaux loves the fact their region was chosen. The nuclear plant has brought jobs and prosperity to the area. Nobody I spoke to, nobody, expressed any fear.

Part of their popularity comes from the fact that scientists and engineers have a much higher status in France than in America. Many high ranking civil servants and government officials trained as scientists and engineers (rather than lawyers, as in the United States), and, unlike in the U.S. where federal administrators are often looked down upon, these technocrats form a special elite. Many have graduated from a few elite schools such as the Ecole Polytechnic. According to Mandil, respect and trust in technocrats is widespread. "For a long time, in families, the good thing for a child to become was an engineer or a scientist, not a lawyer. We like our engineers and our scientists and we are confident in them."

The French have a sense of espirit de corps and are confident and proud of what their scientists and engineers have accomplished.

In the United States, people are more self-centered and jaded. They can't stand the fact that there are other humans with intelligence and cerebral skills that surpass anything the non-technical people could even dream of. Rather than embrace the accomplishments of those that are more mentally gifted; they rebel and attack those accomplishments, just as the ignorant Luddites attacked the technology of their day.

The link you cite

The link you cite http://www.umich.edu/~radinfo/introduction/radrus.htm is based on " National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP 93)" which is from very old data and has been replaced by NCRP Report Number 160 http://www.ncrponline.org/Publications/Press_Releases/160press.html
Which paints a very different picture of exposure.
Please make a mental note of the update.

The updates are in the medical percentage

The updates are in the medical percentage which has increased of late.

However, when it comes to comparing the dosage due to weapons fallout, and the dosage due to natural radioactive materials; the relative value there is not changing except for the natural decay rate of the weapons fallout which is about 30 years.

So for the purpose that I intended; the NCRP 93 still suffices. It shows that the weapons fallout is a small percentage of natural background radioactivity, and that percentage is getting smaller with the ~30 year half-life of the fallout radioactivity.

Lots of 'Pending Updates'

The NPP unfavorable updates are 'Pended' indefinitely. The NPP favorable updates are posted immediately.

Virtually no one is taken-in by this horse hoodah.

Chronic Leukemia increase is 'Pended'

Cardiac Insuffiency is 'Pended'.

The unscientific and indeed untruthful treatment of the REAL NPP radionuclide hazards has moved me from a tepid supporter of Commercial NPP to a confirmed opponent.

TTFN

Last 24 hours have 'killed' French nuclear

Meanwhile in the REAL World

* Last 24 hours have 'killed' French nuclear

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/industry-decline.2012-10-10

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/industry-decline.2012-10-10#commen...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/04/enel-edf-idUSL5E8N4DIJ20121204

* Last 24 hours have 'killed' French nuclear - analyst (Releads, adds details, background)

UPDATE 2-Enel pulls out from French EPR nuclear project

By Stephen Jewkes and Michel Rose

Thomson Reuters is the world's largest international multimedia news agency, providing investing news, world news, business news, technology news, headline news, small business news, news alerts, personal finance, stock market, and mutual funds information available on Reuters.com, video, mobile, and interactive television platforms.

water - Deal With It

"Water water everywhere"

Hydrogen, Oxygen and Water naturally occur on earth and throughout the cosmos in various isotopic forms. Neutrons interact with other forms of matter. Deal with it!

Water, water, every where, Nor any drop to drink.

THE RIME OF THE ANCIENT MARINER, IN SEVEN PARTS, By Samuel Taylor Coleridge, PART THE SECOND http://www.gutenberg.org/files/151/151-h/151-h.htm

Day after day, day after day, We stuck, nor breath nor motion;
As idle as a painted ship Upon a painted ocean.
Water, water, every where, And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where, Nor any drop to drink.
The very deep did rot: O Christ! That ever this should be!
Yea, slimy things did crawl with legs Upon the slimy sea.
About, about, in reel and rout The death-fires danced at night;
The water, like a witch's oils, Burnt green, and blue and white.

For an engineer, you sure do

For an engineer, you sure do quote a lot of poetry.

Diemos

Poetry in motion

Poetry in motion for Einstein scholar

http://www.waikato.ac.nz/news/archive.shtml?article=981
1 May 2009

One hundred and thirty years after Albert Einstein was born, his poetry is being given a scholarly treatment – by a New Zealand-based academic.

Dr Norman Franke, a senior lecturer at the University of Waikato, has completed what is thought to be the first comprehensive scholarly analysis of the scientist's poems. He heads to Frankfurt in July for a conference and will stop in the US for Einstein-related poetry research.

Einstein's poetry is a little known facet of his creativity, Dr Franke says. He has just had an essay published entitled: Albert Einstein als Dichter. Zugleich ein Versuch über das, wovon man nicht sprechen kann. (Albert Einstein as a poet. An essay concerning his poetry including some aspects one must remain silent about). It was published recently in: Jahrbuch der Deutschen Schillergesellschaft, a German literature periodical.

Dr Franke believes it's high time to take a closer look at Einstein the poet and says the 130th anniversary of Einstein's birth is a good time to reflect upon the Nobel Prize winner's contribution to society.

Quoting poetry.

For and engineer, he / she does quote a lot of poetry.

In University Physics departments, there's usually a course in Physics for non-scientists, called "Physics for Poets".

Perhaps the English departments should have "Poetry for Physicists".

I can't believe that our forum's "poet laureate" is any type of engineer. He's made too many elementary MISTAKES that anyone with any technical training just wouldn't make.

I believe, the claim at being an engineer, was merely a way of attempting to garner more credibility.

Besides, one doesn't determine the correctness or rebut scientific statements by using poetry.

Einstein Poetry

A few AE poetry excerpts:

Relativity and the "Physics" of Love

Sit next to a pretty girl for an hour,
it seems like a minute.
Sit on a red-hot stove for a minute,
it seems like an hour.
That's relativity!

Against Hubris

Science without religion is lame,
religion without science is blind,
and whoever undertakes to establish himself
as the judge of Truth and Knowledge
is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.

Curiosity

The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing.
One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity,
of life, of the marvelous structure of reality.
It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day.
Never lose a holy curiosity.

Einstein’s Eclectic Religion

AE was a great admirer of the Jewish Atheist Baruch Spinoza and Jesus Christ.

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s6681.pdf

Max Jammer: Einstein and Religion

CHAPTER 1, Einstein’s Religiosity and the Role of Religion in His Private Life

He learned to respect sincere religious convictions of whatever denomination, an attitude he did not abandon in his later life when he rejected any affiliation with an institutional religious organization. This attitude is evidenced in his replies to some questions raised by George Sylvester Viereck during a 1929 interview.

“To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?” “As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene.”

“Have you read Emil Ludwig’s book on Jesus?” “Emil Ludwig’s Jesus is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot!”

“You accept the historical existence of Jesus?” “Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”12

‘Zu Spinozas Ethik’

‘Zu Spinozas Ethik’ - Albert Einstein (‘On Spinoza's Ethics’)

http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/einstein9-spinoza8.html
Written circa 1920, Transcribed from ms. facsimile, Albert Einstein Archive, 31-018

Wie lieb ich diesen edlen Mann
Mehr als ich mit Worten sagen kann.
Doch fürcht' ich, dass er bleibt allein
Mit seinem strahlenen Heiligenschein.

How I love this noble man
More than I can say with words.
Still, I fear he remains alone
With his shining halo.

http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/spinoza7-borges6.html
Baruch Spinoza - by Jorge Luis Borges

A haze of gold, the Occident lights up
The window. Now, the assiduous manuscript
Is waiting, weighed down with the infinite.
Someone is building God in a dark cup.
A man engenders God. He is a Jew.
With saddened eyes and lemon-colored skin;
Time carries him the way a leaf, dropped in
A river, is borne off by waters to
Its end. No matter. The magician moved
Carves out his God with fine geometry;
From his disease, from nothing, he's begun
To construct God, using the word. No one
Is granted such prodigious love as he:
The love that has no hope of being loved.

SOURCE: Borges, Jorge Luis. "Baruch Spinoza" [from The Unending Rose], translation by Willis Barnstone, in Borges' Selected Poems, edited by Alexander Coleman. (New York: Viking, 1999), p. 383.

IRRELEVANT!!

The poetry above is IRRELEVANT

Scientists do not determine scientific truth by judging who has the nicest poetry.

Scientific truth is determined using the scientific method to conduct experiments so that Mother Nature tells us what is true and what is not.

Poetry has NO PLACE in that quest.

Scientists Rule!!!!!

Scientists Rule!!!!!

Right on! Well written!

Right on! Well written!

Words & Terms

Words & Terms

That corpulent lad in the sports jersey is our team heavy water boy. The morbidly obese chap hauls those heavy water buckets to thirsty team members.

Rude Dog,

1) What is the expected molecular weight of the liquid in those heavy water buckets borne by the heavy water boy?

2) Heavy Water Inc. offers delivery of precision (99.995%, +/_ 0.002%) laboratory water. The customer can specify any specified isotopic composition of light water and heavy water, within the nominal molecular range of 18 - 24, at competitive market pricing and product specific delivery charges. Is this a deliverable product line?

3) Is everybody a lying idiot, or just the Rude Dog?

Words & Terms

Answers.

1) Pure heavy water has a molecular weight of 24 amu = 24 gm / mole

2) Is a variable percentage of heavy water a viable product line? I doubt it. People / organizations that purchase heavy water want it for its neutron moderating capability which would be maximized with 100% pure heavy water. It's as if Chevon Oil offered a product line of gasoline at their service stations. The top of the line would be 100% gasoline. The middle product would be 75% gasoline / 25% water. The bottom of the line would be 50% gasoline / 50% water. Price would be linearly dependent on the percentage of gasoline. Chevron could certainly offer such a product line, but why would they? People by gasoline for the energy content, and there precisely ZERO advantage to buying gasoline with water mixed in.

So I postulate that Chevron could offer gasoline / water mixtures as a product line; but the only product that people would buy would be the 100% gasoline product. Likewise, you can postulate a company that offers various concentrations of heavy water; but just as there is no reason to buy diluted gasoline, there is also no reason to buy diluted heavy water, and hence I don't see anyone offering diluted gasoline or diluted heavy water for sale.

Besides, what does that have to do with what is under discussion. A sample of water that is 100% light water should be called "light water". A sample of water that is 100% heavy water should be called "heavy water". A mixture of light water and heavy water should be called a "mixture of light and heavy water".

That way we call things what they actually are. Would you propose doing otherwise?

The LYING TROLL

Rude Dog, the TROLL with his own personal fantasy world

1) WRONG - heavy water may have various molecular weights, some are stable, some are radiogenic.

2) Wrong - Chevron is required by law to add approximately 10% Alcohol to their gasoline, which results in water accumulation over time.

The Rude Dog TROLL cannot face FACTS or deal with the REAL world

TTFN

WRONG!!! WRONG!!! WRONG!!!

Our resident anti-nuke MORON is just plain WRONG.

What we call "heavy water" is D2O; and it has a molecular weight of 24 and is STABLE and non-radioactive.

Yes - Chevron has to add 10% alcohol; and the alcohol causes water absorption.
However, Chevron is NOT selling you water.

Chevron is NOT putting water in their gas. The water isn't coming from Chevron. The water is coming from the atmosphere. Chevron makes a mixture of gasoline and alcohol. When that mixture is stored, the alcohol can absorb some water from the atmospheric humidity; which is where the water comes from. However, Chevron is NOT offering gasoline with significant amounts of water. In any case, a mixture of gasoline, alcohol, and water should be referred to as a "mixture of gasoline, alcohol, and water".

Of course this digression on the water absorbing properties of alcohol, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue at hand; and has no analog with regard to heavy water. Heavy water manufacturers are NOT required to add a "contaminant" to the heavy water that preferentially absorbs Tritium. So this alcohol issue is a pure digression.

The poor little, stupid anti-nuke has got himself all boxed in. He's essentially making the argument that black isn't black and white isn't white. We have to call black, "white" because it might be a little gray. NONSENSE.

This is where stupidity and arrogant self-righteousness leads one; into defending the nonsensical.

Pity, this poor ignorant cretin.

We?

We?

What we call "heavy water" ... ?

Perhaps Rude Dog is pregnant or has a mouse in his pocket.

Nomenclature exists to specify D2O, however is only one of many isotope combinations,

HHO and H2O are available in many isotope formulations.

If it matters, be SPECIFIC.

When it matters, be SPECIFIC.

Otherwise, you get what you get.

Literary Reference, NYTimes Best Seller List

“the heavy water skin”

“it was Likari who unshouldered the heavy water skin”

http://www.litmir.net/br/?b=120202&p=24

From the Soldier Son Trilogy, Renegade's Magic, By Robin Hobb

“Heedless of burns, Soldier’s Boy was stamping at the edges of the burning fire. Olikea had taken the food pouch from her belt and was using it to beat the flames down. But it was Likari who unshouldered the heavy water skin he had been carrying. Opening it, he squeezed the bag, directing the stream into the heart of the fire. Epiny had retreated when the three had rushed up on her. Now she stood transfixed, watching as they tore her fire apart and poured water onto it and then stamped and smothered the remaining flames. In a few moments, the danger was past.”

One of the problems with the English language..

One of the problems with the English language is that we have no way to indicate which word a modifier, such as an adjective modifies. In the example given above, the adjective "heavy" in "heavy water skin" modifies "skin" and not "water".

Likari had a "water skin" that was heavy. He didn't have a skin for carrying "heavy water".

Mathematics solves this problem with parentheses to indicate the desired order of operations. IF English used parentheses for the same function Robin Hobb would have written the above as:

"the (heavy (water skin) )" to indicate that the (water skin) object had the attribute of being heavy.

This would be as opposed to:

"the ( (heavy water) skin ) which would be a skin used to carry D2O.

Selling 1 Book

Selling 1 Book:

Robin Hobb made the NYTimes Best Seller List 'As Written'.

With the help of the Rude Dog, Robin Hobb could have perhaps sold ≤ ... 1 Book.

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, with the help of a Troll.

TTFN

Heavy Water Definition

Rude Dog,

In your opinion, do you still personally consider?:

1) ALL Heavy Water to be stable (non-radioactive)?
2) Everyone liars that consider some Heavy Water to be radioactive?
3) All persons exercising radioactive precautions with Heavy Water to be Idiots?

http://americanheritage.yourdictionary.com/heavy-water

noun
Any of several isotopic forms of water, especially deuterium oxide, that consists chiefly of molecules containing heavy hydrogen and is used as a moderator in certain nuclear reactors.

http://www.wordnik.com/words/heavy%20water

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 4th edition
Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company

Dictionary Home » American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language » heavy water

Rude Dog bloviated:

That’s why he is the Rude Dog.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/americium-241-tokyo-fukushima-diar...

“I remember several months back, you attempted to tell us heavy water was radioactive because it contained tritium. A high schooler would have known better. Heavy water is NOT radioactive because it contains non-radioactive deuterium; and NOT tritium.”

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/give-me-reason-doubt-leaked-tepco-...

“First, you need to learn some basic chemistry. Even IF reactors released heavy water; that would be of no consequence. Heavy water is NOT RADIOACTIVE. Heavy water is used in some reactors because it has less of a tendency to absorb neutrons. Secondly, you keep confusing "heavy water" and tritium. Heavy water is not radioactive, and tritium is radioactive.”

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/give-me-reason-doubt-leaked-tepco-...

“"Heavy water" is the oxide of Deuterium, NOT Tritium!!! You've got your isotopes screwed up!!!”
“Why don't the anti-nukes just Google "heavy water" and discover the above link to Wikipedia, and learn that "heavy water" does not mean tritium or radioactivity.”

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/give-me-reason-doubt-leaked-tepco-...

“I can't believe there was actually someone here that was stupid enough not to know the difference between heavy water and tritium. I know that the education system is going into the toilet, but please, not knowing the difference between radioactive tritium and harmless, non-radioactive heavy water is a bit much to believe. Must by a political "science" major.”

Accurate then and accurate now.

Accurate then and accurate now.

Thanks for reminding the forum members.

Heavy water is NOT radioactive.

If someone had a mixture of "heavy water" and "heavy, heavy water"; then that mixture would be radioactive since one of its components is radioactive; the "heavy, heavy water" component and NOT the "heavy water" component.

If someone had non-radioactive light water with some contamination mixed in, again it should be identified as a mixture then that should be handled as radioactive material because of the contaminant, and not the light water. Just because light water could have a contaminant in it, doesn't mean that all ordinary light water is radioactive.

If you substitute "heavy" for "light" in the above paragraph; the result will also be true and accurate.

Definition of TERMS

Terms,

WE define our terms, in the REAL WORLD, of science, engineering and mathematics.

The words of the English language are for general use, and often have a number of meanings. Individuals and groups occasionally attempt to COOPT words for private purposes and personal agendas. Teenagers and others, often deliberately use words in direct opposition to the dictionary definitions. Words add new meanings over time, but the classic usages may remain extant for centuries.

Terms MUST be defined.

Deal with it!

Unsubstantiated / Uneducated Opinion from the above poster

The above poster states
Commercial Nuclear Power Plants have failed to safely and economically generate electrical power.

I don't see how the above poster can make such an unsubstantiated statement.

In the past 55 years, nuclear power in the USA has produced electric power economically and safely. The costs of nuclear power rival those of coal, even though coal has many externalized costs in pollution and health effects that are not accounted for in the price:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html

In the USA, there has been only ONE serious commercial nuclear power accident at Three Mile Island, and nobody was killed nor injured. When some attempted to sue Metropolitan Edison, their case was summarily dismissed for lack of evidence:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/readings/tmi.html

During this same time, the last 55 years; the USA has lost an average of 40,000 to 50,000 people each year due to traffic accidents. That's a total of over 2 million dead due to our use of automobiles. Does any question our use of automobiles and say that automobiles are a failure?

We've lost thousands or tens of thousands in the crashes of airliners. Do people say aviation is a failure?

There have been two serious accidents outside the USA. In one, Chernobyl; the reactor design and operation were faulty. However, that design is not used in the USA; so how does such an accident speak to the US experience? It doesn't.

In Japan, Fukushima used the same design of reactor, licensed from a US company. However, the supporting equipment was not up to US specifications. Diesel backup generators were located in vulnerable locations. The fuel tanks for same were above ground at dockside, also vulnerable, whereas these tanks have to be buried in the USA. The hydrogen venting systems were not updated to US specifications. So how does this speak to the US experience too? It doesn't.

However, even if one includes the two foreign accidents, the health effects pale next to the carnage on the US highways during the same time, which is readily accepted.

So how can anyone call the nuclear power experience in the USA a failure?

Only those with limited analytical mental faculties could come to such a conclusion. Someone with the limited intellect as to claim that heavy water was radioactive because it contained tritium is the type of limited intellect that could reach such an unsubstantiated conclusion.

Words & Terms

Words & Terms

That corpulent lad in the sports jersey is our team heavy water boy. The morbidly obese chap hauls those heavy water buckets to thirsty team members.

Rude Dog,

1) What is the expected molecular weight of the liquid in those heavy water buckets borne by the heavy water boy?

2) Heavy Water Inc. offers delivery of precision (99.995%, +/_ 0.002%) laboratory water. The customer may purchase any specified isotopic composition of light water and heavy water, within the nominal molecular range of 18 - 24, at competitive market pricing and product specific delivery charges. Is this a deliverable product line?

3) Is everybody a lying idiot, or just the Rude Dog?

Words & Terms

IMHO

In My Humble Opinion (IMHO)

IMHO
(IMHO) Commercial Nuclear Power Plants have failed to safely and economically generate electrical power. (IMHO)
IMHO

The Rude Dog states: “I don't see how the above poster can make such an unsubstantiated statement.”

Daft, The Rude Dog is daft in the head. Seasoned and reasoned engineers MAY arrive at different PERSONAL conclusions, based on the same set of objective FACTS. The evidence, mathematics, physics, assumptions and models are suitable for argument. Does the Rude Dog presume to argue with the substantive basis for my preferred: breakfast, sports teams, music, wine selection and movie as well? Does the Rude Dog wish to argue, that the above statement does not represent my opinion? The Rude Dog is impertinent.

“IMHO”, means that the statement is a personal OPINION, which does not generally provide the basis for a debate.

It does happen that in this particular circumstance, much of Western Civilization has come to a similar conclusion. To wit: “Commercial Nuclear Power Plants have failed to safely and economically generate electrical power.”

Bill Duff

You are entitled to your own opinion, but NOT your own facts

Bill Duff states,
Does the Rude Dog presume to argue with the substantive basis for my preferred: breakfast, sports teams, music, wine selection and movie as well? Does the Rude Dog wish to argue, that the above statement does not represent my opinion?

Evidently Bill Duff doesn't understand that some statements are subjective, while other statements are objective.

Bill, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Statements on the quality of breakfast, music, wine.. are subjective and each person has the right to their own opinion on these.

However, other statements are objective. Is Bill Duff claiming that he has the right of his own opinion on which century the USA fought the Civil War.?

That's ridiculous. The Civil War was fought in the 19th century and anyone that says otherwise isn't just expressing their opinion, they are just flat out WRONG

How about the value of Gold. Does Bill Duff have a right to an opinion that gold is basically a worthless metal? NO - the facts are that gold is valuable.

So in which category are the questions of economics and safety of nuclear power; subjective or objective.

They are clearly in the objective category. Like the value of gold, the cost to generate electric energy isn't subject to opinion; it is a FACT. It takes a certain expenditure to make nuclear-generated electricity. That expenditure, as shown above, is comparable to the analogous expenditure for coal-produced electricity, and is much lower than other fossil fuels, and lower than renewables by a wide margin.

In the area of safety, safety is also characterized by known objective facts. The number of people killed in automobiles in the past 50 years that we have had nuclear power is about 2 million. However, that degree of loss of life is accepted by the public in order to have access to automobiles.

Likewise, the number of people killed in aviation accidents is on the order of a few thousands or tens of thousands. Again, the public accepts this in order to have access to air travel.

It is also a FACT that the number of people from the general populace that have either been killed or injured as a result of the use of nuclear power in the USA is precisely ZERO.

Those are the FACTS.

Now the problem for nuclear power is that a large number of people are ignorant and have poor reasoning skills and low intellect. Those people have been scared by the professional anti-nuclear propagandists. That has driven whole nations to reduce or abandon nuclear power.

However, what is best for the USA? Do we point to a bunch of people of low intelligence who have been scared by professional propagandists, and say, "They are going that way - we should go that way to."

Is it better to follow leaders who are scientifically adept and can evaluate risks accurately and objectively. Or is it better to follow a bunch of ignorant lemmings.

So pointing out what others are doing; doesn't carry much weight with me.

I would ask, what do the intelligent scientists say we should be doing, as opposed to the popular lemmings. Scientists, particularly physicists, and engineers; who are the people that are best informed on nuclear power; are the ones that widely support nuclear power by 99% or more.

Bill Duff can argue for following the idiots; I guess it's would be natural for him to seek out his own kind.

But for good public policy; I will go with the scientists over the idiots any old day of the week.

Just the Facts

Rude Dog,

Tell us the FACTS about 'Heavy Water'

LOL

I've told you.

The FACTS about "heavy water" is that heavy water is made with non-radioactive deuterium and non-radioactive oxygen; so heavy water is not radioactive.

Those are the FACTS.

Rude Dog

Rude Dog,

You BLOW

TTFN

Eloquent as always...

Eloquent as always...

Radioactive IUDs & Baby Spoons

“Radioactively contaminated metals could have been turned into everything from baby spoons to jewelry to medical devices that are implanted into the human body.”

http://markey.house.gov/press-release/markey-questions-doe%E2%80%99s-rad...
http://markey.house.gov/sites/markey.house.gov/files/documents/2013-01-1...

Radioactive Scrap Metal Could be Turned into Consumer Products

WASHINGTON (January 11, 2013) – A Department of Energy proposal to allow up to 14,000 metric tons of its radioactive scrap metal to be recycled into consumer products was called into question today by Rep. Ed Markey (D-Mass.) due to concerns over public health. In a letter sent to DOE head Steven Chu, Rep. Markey expressed “grave concerns” over the potential of these metals becoming jewelry, cutlery, or other consumer products that could exceed healthy doses of radiation without any knowledge by the consumer. DOE made the proposal to rescind its earlier moratorium on radioactive scrap metal recycling in December, 2012.

“The public concerns associated with such a proposal cannot be understated,” writes Rep. Markey to Secretary Chu. “If these metals are being released to companies who will subsequently manufacture new consumer products from them, DOE simply has no way to ensure that different samples are not aggregated into more highly radioactive products.”

Energy Secretary Bill Richardson first suspended DOE’s radioactive recycling efforts in response to concerns raised by Rep. Markey and others that DOE would not be able to assure public safety as radioactively contaminated metals could have been turned into everything from baby spoons to jewelry to medical devices that are implanted into the human body.

In December 2012, however, DOE proposed to do away with the ban on radioactive recycling.

Going shopping? Don’t forget your Geiger counter.

“I’ve found weapons-grade uranium in scrap.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-19/nuclear-risks-at-bed-bath-beyon... By Jonathan Tirone & Andrew MacAskill - Mar 20, 2012 1:23 AM CT

The discovery of radioactive tissue boxes at Bed, Bath & Beyond Inc. (BBBY) stores in January raised alarms among nuclear security officials and company executives over the growing global threat of contaminated scrap metal. The Department of Homeland Security declined to provide updated figures or comment on how the metal tissue boxes at Bed, Bath & Beyond, tainted with melted cobalt-60 used in medical instruments to diagnose and treat cancer, evaded detection.

“The major risk we face in our industry is radiation,” said Paul de Bruin, radiation-safety chief for Jewometaal Stainless Processing BV, one of the world’s biggest stainless- steel scrap yards. “You can talk about security all you want, but I’ve found weapons-grade uranium in scrap. Where was the security?”

Where's my salt shaker; I need a grain of salt.

[i]You can talk about security all you want, but I’ve found weapons-grade uranium in scrap. Where was the security?”[/i]

Where's my salt shaker; I need a grain of salt.

I've really got to doubt the claim about finding "weapons grade uranium" in scrap.

Either this radiation-safety chief doesn't know weapons grade uranium when he sees it, or was saying that for effect.

Only the Government produces weapons grade uranium, and it involves an extremely expensive process to make weapons grade uranium. As one might expect, one doesn't treat such a costly commodity lightly.

Saying that one found "weapons grade uranium" in a bunch of scrap is as outlandish as having one say they found "24 karat GOLD" in a bunch of scrap.

Sorry, but people who are handling precious gold aren't so careless as to throw it out with the scrap. You know you are handling a lot of money when you handle gold.

It's even more so for "weapons grade uranium". The processes of dealing with weapons grade uranium are extremely stringent. You have multiple person teams performing very scripted operations. I don't see any way a whole team of people all make simultaneous mistakes such that extremely precious weapons grade uranium winds up in the scrap heap.

The radioactive scrap is almost exclusively a problem with the improper disposal of medical treatment / diagnostic devices with radioactive material. The processes of the nuclear power and nuclear weapons industries are much more regulated and scripted than those in the medical equipment disposal industry.

Radioactive Beer Kegs

Radioactive Beer Kegs Menace Public

Cesium-137 and Cobalt-60 are hidden inside beer kegs

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aKNgo0CVJg9s

1 Million Missing Sources

Many atomic devices weren't licensed when they were first widely used by industry in the 1970s. While most countries have since tightened regulations, it is still difficult to track first-generation equipment that is now coming to the end of its useful life. Abandoned medical scanners, food processing devices and mining equipment containing radioactive metals such as cesium-137 and cobalt-60 are often picked up by scrap collectors and sold to recyclers, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, the UN's nuclear arm. De Bruin said he sometimes finds such items hidden inside beer kegs and lead pipes to prevent detection.

There may be more than 1 million missing radioactive sources worldwide, the Vienna-based IAEA estimates. ``We're passing by the first era of nuclear applications, so disused material is increasing,'' said Vilmos Friedrich, an IAEA inspector. ``Until recently, there hasn't been licensing'' for industrial devices.

Dumpster Diving for Weapon Grade Uranium

Help yourself - Previous BRAWM Topic

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/team-obama-nuclear-security.2012-0...
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/team-obama-nuclear-security.2012-0...

Dumpster Diving for Weapon Grade Uranium

http://www.ips-dc.org/files/5247/Bob-Alvarez-Managing-Uranium.pdf
http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/managing_uranium
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/us/uranium-233-disposal-proves-a-probl...

The United States has created a problem called uranium-233, a material suitable for the core of a nuclear weapon and among the most dangerous materials on the planet. If as little as 19 pounds of uranium-233 fell into the wrong hands, it could make an explosion that could destroy all of downtown Washington, D.C. or another city.

About 96 kilograms (212 Lb) of uranium-233 may be unaccounted for.

"The Energy Department has indicated it plans to waive safeguards and safety requirements to dispose of nearly 2,000 pounds of these concentrated nuclear explosive materials by simply putting them in a landfill. This would be in disregard for international safeguard and security norms as well as the department's own nuclear security and radioactive waste disposal standards."